Making a Murderer - Steven Avery Guilty or Innocent?

[Sombeech]

My wife and I just finished watching the Netflix series Making a Murderer, featuring the trial(s) of Steven Avery and his nephew Brendan Dassey.

If anybody is still watching it, there may be some spoilers in this thread, so hurry up and binge watch the series so the whole internet can stop halting on the discussion just because you're taking your sweet time in watching it

Anyways, what did you guys think? I admit I really got swept up in the whole series, emotions ran high about the prosecution and their tactics.

And then I dig a little further, beyond the Netflix series, and my opinion started to change on the whole case.

What do you think in the end, guilty or innocent?

[Iceaxe]

It's a TV show and can be edited to make you believe what the show wants you to believe, which is particularly true in this case. A lot of important information which will sway your opinion in the opposite direction was conveniently left out of this show or only touched on lightly.

[Sombeech]

Yeah that's where I was going with this thread. The show infuriated my wife and I, pure disgust and disbelief that this innocent guy was serving decades of his life for multiple things he didn't do. So I started researching if there had been any recent developments, and that's where I saw the laundry list of evidence that these 2 women blatantly left out of their documentary.

Such as, how many times previously Steven had personally requested Teresa to be the photographer of the vehicle, how he would hide his number with *67 when calling her, his DNA under the hood latch of the Rav4, his history of sexually abusing his relatives.

I think the main reason I needed to know more, was it seemed the defense had a really strong case with Sgt Coburn, appearing to find the abandoned Rav4 as he called in the license plate. The episode ended with that and it wasn't mentioned again, I thought it was rock solid evidence of planting the vehicle on the property.

But the documentary left out that he likely called in the plate number because Teresa's family gave the vehicle info to him and he was checking the plate number to confirm the make and model, so they could put out an APB.

So at first I was disgusted with the prosecution, and the whole department at that. But the more I found, my disgust turned to the 2 women who produced the documentary, clearly pushing an unbalanced opinion.

Unfortunately, now there are many people across the nation signing petitions to get Obama to pardon him, filled with emotions and rage at the prosecution.

[Iceaxe]

The one thing I learned from all this is if you are ever convicted of a crime get a documentary showing your innocence made :-)

[rockgremlin]

In a taped testimony, (not submitted in the jury trial) Brendan admitted to killing Teresa....and Stephen coerced him to do it.

I agree there was some corruption on the part of law enforcement, but I believe the right guys are behind bars.

[rockgremlin]

Crying out loud, Steven's own brother, William H. Macy admitted he thinks Stephen did it. Here's a guy who grew up with Stephen making a bold claim in support of the prosecution. He's got nothing to gain for saying that...

...except for a few extra bucks cuz Shameless ain't paying the bills...

[rockgremlin]

Just finished the series last night. I have some lingering questions about some glaring inconsistencies:

1. The prosecution's entire theory was centered around the following story - That Teresa was tied up and raped on Stephen's bed, her throat slit, and then dragged out to the garage where she was shot. From there she was dragged about 100 feet to the burn pit and cremated.

Except...

If this were true, there would be blood everywhere...

...but they never found a scrap of Teresa's blood, sweat or hair anywhere in the house. That's a physical impossibility. There's no way Stephen could have cleaned up the scene that thoroughly.

2. A blood spatter analyst testified that they found Teresa's blood in the back of her Rav4.

???

If she was dragged outside from the garage to the fire pit, why is her blood in the back of her car? That makes zero sense.

Don't get me wrong, I believe Stephen killed her, I just don't buy the prosecution's version of the events because there's absolutely zero corroborating evidence to back it up.

[Sombeech]

I don't know if I can believe much of Brendan's confession. Those cops were hounding him, leading him into saying every single thing. It says a lot when after the confession, he asks them if he's going to be back in time for 6th period to turn in a project.

They flat out told him to say these things and it was going to be OK. In fact, if he wanted to have a family some day, he needed to cooperate. That was a damned lie and I feel sorry for the kid.

But yeah there's a ton missing from the documentary. I don't think she was killed in the garage either. Not one spec of blood was found in there, and he's not the intelligent type to prepare a kill room like Dexter.

One theory is she's shot right in the driver seat of her Rav4, but there's no blood in there supporting that theory. Hell even if he cleaned it up, he's not going to leave multiple VISIBLE traces of his own blood.

There is no blood in the locations that support the prosecution theory, but this is only what we've been fed. For all we know Steven could have had blood dripping from his damned face and the documentary crew chose to exclude that.

that key though, definitely planted. They had hardly anything on the guy and they needed this prosecution to happen bad.

[rockgremlin]

Stephen had it bad for Teresa...this is evident by the three anonymous (*67) phone calls he placed, specifically requesting Teresa to come to his residence.

Here's what I believe happened:

When she came out to his residence, I believe she immediately got to work shooting photos of his van. Afterwards, she approached his trailer. It was here that I believe he seized the opportunity, since nobody else was around.

I think he at that point made sexual requests, and sexually assaulted her. I believe he did it by THREAT of death, but not actual force. Possibly by gunpoint or knifepoint. Since no DNA evidence was found on any ropes or chains in the house, I don't think she was physically restrained...I think the claim that she was tied down to the bed was a fabrication of the prosecution...

...At this point, there is very little DNA evidence in the trailer (which is consistent with the state of Steven's trailer - almost no DNA evidence was found that proved Teresa was ever inside his trailer). After sexually assaulting her, he realized that he could not let her walk free, or he would go back to jail. Faced with the task of having to dispose of both her and her car, he decided to kill two birds with one stone, and hastily struck her over the head, knocking her unconscious...

...From here, he loads her into the back of her car. Her head begins to bleed from the blows that Steven dealt to knock her out - this is how Teresa's blood got into the back of her own car. Steven grabs his .22, and jumps into Teresa's car, driving it to where it was eventually left. Once there, he pulls her out, shoots her, and loads her body into one of those steel "burn barrels" that were scattered around his property. He dumps an accelerant on her body (maybe the same type he used on his cat so many years ago), and lights her up...

...During the time Teresa's body is burning up, he busies himself with covering her Rav4 with wood and a tarp. Once the "crematorium" died down, he was disappointed that her body didn't burn up as completely as he would've liked. So, from there, he transports the burn barrel over to the infamous fire pit, piles a bunch of wood and tires on top, and sets the whole mess ablaze, hoping the massive bonfire would incinerate her remains completely...

...From here, he calls Brendan to come over and help him load more stuff on the fire, thereby establishing an alibi (this corroborates with Brendan's UNCOERCED version of events as well).

Once Teresa's car was located on Steven's property, the cops had a full week to run amok with impunity, planting numerous items with the intent to ensure an airtight conviction. Teresa's key was obviously planted. And since Steven's blood was found in Teresa's Rav4, but no fingerprints, that obviously means Steven was wearing gloves...which leads me to believe Steven's blood was planted as well.

Funny thing is...all the stuff the cops planted was overkill. Teresa's car on Steven's property and her bones in Steven's fire pit would've been more than enough evidence to convict.

I believe it's plausible that Brendan is innocent. His confession isn't a confession at all...just a regurgitation of what he was coached to say by the detectives as well as HIS OWN FREAKING LAWYER.

[Sombeech]

I'm not sure how he would have broken her bones up into such small pieces, would he have to cut her up, or would he have broken the bones up after they had burnt and become more fragile? Would the timeline allow for the post fire breaking of bones?

And why the hell did he dump her bones in his own damned yard? One answer is he's dumb as a box of rocks which is true, the other is that the bones were planted.

[rockgremlin]

He was using accelerants as well as tires to stoke the fire, and one eyewitness claimed that the flames were up to ten feet high. That fire was was extremely hot. Under those circumstances, it's not uncommon for the bones to shatter on their own - since bones are filled with fluid anyways (marrow). I think it's plausible that the bones could've shattered on their own....but I'm still waiting for Mythbusters to confirm that. :)

I don't think he anticipated anybody to go combing through the ashes looking for anything. I also don't think he anticipated that anyone would locate her car on his property, since there were already so many vehicles on his property, and her Rav4 was covered with a tarp.

[gholt]

I think the biggest thing learned from the documentary is how corrupt the justice system can be. Be careful if you're ever brought in for questioning.

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