LOST 100' blue rope off last rap in cathedral, Neon Escalante

[mtbron]

Hi there fellow canyoneers. If anyone finds a 100' blue rope into Cathedral. please PM me. I could pay for shipping and send you a gift for your kindness. Lost on October 11. We were really tired, running low on water and a bit disoriented. I rapped down on a clove hitch on a biner, the other end i tied to my retrieval line. The 100' retrieval line was too elastic and would not pull. We got out cause we were having a bad day, sun was going down, so we left the rope behind. I would really appreciate it if anyone were to find it.
Thank you!!
Ron

[dude9478]

Are you planning on going back? Not a good place to stick a rope...

[jman]

Just curious - what was the 'bad day' all about?


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[mtbron]

jaja, i didn't mean to do it on purpose. I hadn't used THAT retrieval line b4, (BlueWater PreCut Accessory Cord 4mm) we were travelling light and did it in one day, no camping. The elasticity of the rope didn't allow for me to pull it, it would just expand when i pulled.

[Brian in SLC]

jaja, i didn't mean to do it on purpose. I hadn't used THAT retrieval line b4, (BlueWater PreCut Accessory Cord 4mm) we were travelling light and did it in one day, no camping. The elasticity of the rope didn't allow for me to pull it, it would just expand when i pulled.

Yeah, 4mm pull cord is maybe pushing the "travelliing light" thing a bit too far.

Expand? You mean "stretch".

800lbf strength? With a knot and two people pulling...you'd bust that thing.

[mtbron]

A bad day was stomach cramps, didn't wear proper wetsuit, (water was very cold) low on potable water. We went back and forth between the Hoodoo drop and the normal drop in to start the canyon part. We had a late start being at the trailhead around 9ishAM. We were also very fatigued from doing 3 other canyons in the previous days. In 3.5 days we did keyhole, Subway, birch Hollow and then Neon. Got stuck on the little rap before Cathedral on a knot in the rope. I was thinking of climbing the rope to get a better grip but didn't have the energy (we were really fatigued) and didn't want to make things worse. So we left, there was a group that had just come out, they had their stuff drying out in the camp near the entrance. We were going to talk to them but it was late in the day and we still had the hike out. It was a good day, but potentially bad. Hope someone has information about my rope.

[mtbron]

Yeah, it was stretching. What would be recommended for a light retrieval line? Also was thinking of using our tubular webbing to at least the end of the drop in and then attaching my line to the end of that. I see my mistake was the retrieval line.

[dude9478]

Yeah, it was stretching. What would be recommended for a light retrieval line? Also was thinking of using our tubular webbing to at least the end of the drop in and then attaching my line to the end of that. I see my mistake was the retrieval line.

We have a 6mm 200 foot pull cord from Imlay Canyon gear that works great. Not the lightest, but is static.
http://www.store.canyoneeringusa.com...tegory=2490784

I will say, it might make more sense bring a couple extra ropes until you get a little more experience.

Glad you made it out safe.

[mtbron]

We have a 6mm 200 foot pull cord from Imlay Canyon gear that works great. Not the lightest, but is static.
http://www.store.canyoneeringusa.com...tegory=2490784

I will say, it might make more sense bring a couple extra ropes until you get a little more experience.

Glad you made it out safe.

Thank you!!!! Thanks to communities like this we were able to be prepared. In hindsight we did a lot and were extremely prepared but a lot of learning is done on the field and of course w a lot of precaution and respect. Thank you for your comments and recommendations!

[ratagonia]

Thank you!!!! Thanks to communities like this we were able to be prepared. In hindsight we did a lot and were extremely prepared but a lot of learning is done on the field and of course w a lot of precaution and respect. Thank you for your comments and recommendations!

I think the facts show that you were not "extremely prepared".

Thank you for coming out with your story and details, but...

It is clear that you are just starting in this sport, and that you are gaining experience quickly! Perhaps you should stop the way you are doing it before you get hurt or killed, and find some experienced canyoneers to get a few canyons in, to see how it is done. Here on Bogley is a fine place to solicit for partners, to get on a trip with people you can learn from (other than the hard way). Nothing wrong with being a beginner - but there is something wrong with being a beginner leading beginners out into the wilderness...

Seems unlikely you will get your rope back. If it was me, I would not send you your rope back. You botched and abandoned gear, due to incompetence. Your moral claim to the rope is weak.

Realistically, plenty of people do the Neon Cathedral, and your rope is probably already retrieved. But many of those people are not "active, engaged canyoneers who follow Bogley or Canyon Collective." It seems unlikely you will get your rope back.

Tom

[Jolly Green]

We have used a skinny dyneema pull cord for quite some time. It is true they are quite stretchy. There are a few tricks to pulling them. Generally we tie a biner in to give something to hold onto as they slip through your hands easily. Generally this is a group effort that takes the entire team to get it moving. The big key is that I would never use one as an actual pull cord, only to pull the fiddlestick out on a rap. I'd stay away from skinny pull cords until you are using a fiddlestick proficiently, which will likely be in the distant future. In the meanwhile, I'd get a thicker pull cord or just use another rope to pull.

This is a valuable lesson. I just hope someone got your rope so that one of the many photographers that frequent the area from below didn't have his day wasted as his glory shot he hiked all that way to get now has a stinking rope in it.

[mtbron]

Wow! Thank you for your comments Ratagonia Jones. We solicited here and on reddit, no takers. We did bump into some canyoneers there that helped us out with routes and just seeing someone out there was helpful. We have canyoneered in Costa Rica, Nepal, Upstate New York and Switzerland. We also took a 4 day course in Leprechaun (Utah), where we were taught knots and everything else involved with the sport. I'm a triathlete, so swimming is no bigs. We've ice climbed, outdoor climbed and have asked as many questions to the guides as can be asked. We have books, subscriptions to apps for knots and weight distribution. We did keyhole and talked about potential dangers, we have checked the death posts, also in climbing; they outline the possible cause of death (learned a ton there). Checking flash flood risks in the morning. Been Canyoneering with guides for 8 years now. Not sure how else to gain experience, i didn't rappel out of a vagina with a munter hitch on my umbilical. We all learn how to do things progressively through life. When faced with problem solving in the canyons, we spit out quick answers and didn't sit on idle. We had water filters, a first aid kit that weights 4+ lbs. We had hooks for keepers, tons of tubular webbing, camp quicklinks, biners, accessory cords, Canyoneering backpacks which floated, helmets, food, snacks, sun protection, headlights, matches, mylar blankets and other stuff. We had a GPS with way points and topography, we had a cellphone. We had water proofed topography maps from different sites; Including yours and blue gnome. These maps also had the description of the approach, canyon and exit. After not being able to retrieve the rope, we didn't sit there and try to find a solution, (mentally and physically fatigued) we got out bc the sun was setting and made it to the car at dusk. Sometimes there's all the training in the world, but survival instinct can't be taught. We got out with time to spare and if my lesson is a lost rope (or someone's judgement of our attempt), then hey, it's all good. We'll be out there again, cause we loved it. I'll take this moment to thank you for putting together your website, i have spent countless of hours on there. Thank you for your response Tom.

Ron

[mtbron]

We have used a skinny dyneema pull cord for quite some time. It is true they are quite stretchy. There are a few tricks to pulling them. Generally we tie a biner in to give something to hold onto as they slip through your hands easily. Generally this is a group effort that takes the entire team to get it moving. The big key is that I would never use one as an actual pull cord, only to pull the fiddlestick out on a rap. I'd stay away from skinny pull cords until you are using a fiddlestick proficiently, which will likely be in the distant future. In the meanwhile, I'd get a thicker pull cord or just use another rope to pull.


This is a valuable lesson. I just hope someone got your rope so that one of the many photographers that frequent the area from below didn't have his day wasted as his glory shot he hiked all that way to get now has a stinking rope in it.

Thank you for your suggestion. I had thick gloves to pull and also tied a stick to the rope to pull it, but no dice. My buddy was going to grab the retrieval and pull whilst the other flicked the rope to get it unstuck but we needed to get out of there, so there was a couple of attempts and we just decided it would be best to count or losses and hike out. I did have a fiddle stick but my buddy didn't want to trust that. It's great to hear all of these potential problem solving ideas, thank you for response! Yeah, having the rope in the middle of their shot would ruin it.

[Slot Machine]

I did have a fiddle stick but my buddy didn't want to trust that.

Your buddy sounds smart! I can't stand by idly and let everyone bag on the bad choices and just breeze by the good ones!

Bravo! mtbron's friend!

FWIW, we never bring pull cords, just extra ropes. The utility of having extra rope outweighs the benefits of light pullcords, almost always.

[Brian in SLC]

Not sure how else to gain experience, i didn't rappel out of a vagina with a munter hitch on my umbilical.

Ahhh...I think you'll fit right in here...

[ratagonia]

Wow! Thank you for your comments Ratagonia Jones. We solicited here and on reddit, no takers. We did bump into some canyoneers there that helped us out with routes and just seeing someone out there was helpful. We have canyoneered in Costa Rica, Nepal, Upstate New York and Switzerland. We also took a 4 day course in Leprechaun (Utah), where we were taught knots and everything else involved with the sport. I'm a triathlete, so swimming is no bigs. We've ice climbed, outdoor climbed and have asked as many questions to the guides as can be asked. We have books, subscriptions to apps for knots and weight distribution. We did keyhole and talked about potential dangers, we have checked the death posts, also in climbing; they outline the possible cause of death (learned a ton there). Checking flash flood risks in the morning. Been Canyoneering with guides for 8 years now. Not sure how else to gain experience, i didn't rappel out of a vagina with a munter hitch on my umbilical. We all learn how to do things progressively through life. When faced with problem solving in the canyons, we spit out quick answers and didn't sit on idle. We had water filters, a first aid kit that weights 4+ lbs. We had hooks for keepers, tons of tubular webbing, camp quicklinks, biners, accessory cords, Canyoneering backpacks which floated, helmets, food, snacks, sun protection, headlights, matches, mylar blankets and other stuff. We had a GPS with way points and topography, we had a cellphone. We had water proofed topography maps from different sites; Including yours and blue gnome. These maps also had the description of the approach, canyon and exit. After not being able to retrieve the rope, we didn't sit there and try to find a solution, (mentally and physically fatigued) we got out bc the sun was setting and made it to the car at dusk. Sometimes there's all the training in the world, but survival instinct can't be taught. We got out with time to spare and if my lesson is a lost rope (or someone's judgement of our attempt), then hey, it's all good. We'll be out there again, cause we loved it. I'll take this moment to thank you for putting together your website, i have spent countless of hours on there. Thank you for your response Tom.

Ron

This is an amazing list. It is good of you to confirm that there are many people for whom doing canyons, even lots of canyons, and extensive training does not gain them useful experience, nor self-knowledge.

And that carrying lots of crap does not make people safer.

Tom

[ratagonia]

We have used a skinny dyneema pull cord for quite some time. It is true they are quite stretchy. There are a few tricks to pulling them. Generally we tie a biner in to give something to hold onto as they slip through your hands easily. Generally this is a group effort that takes the entire team to get it moving. The big key is that I would never use one as an actual pull cord, only to pull the fiddlestick out on a rap. I'd stay away from skinny pull cords until you are using a fiddlestick proficiently, which will likely be in the distant future. In the meanwhile, I'd get a thicker pull cord or just use another rope to pull.

This is a valuable lesson. I just hope someone got your rope so that one of the many photographers that frequent the area from below didn't have his day wasted as his glory shot he hiked all that way to get now has a stinking rope in it.

But a skinny dyneema cord is not equivalent to a skinny accessory cord. A skinny dyneema cord is STRONG and WAY more static than a 4mm accessory cord, be it nylon or polyester.

And as you say, mostly used for Fiddlesticking. I use one on occasion for pulls I know are 100% clean. The Neon pull is not 100% clean.

[Bootboy]

And as you say, mostly used for Fiddlesticking. I use one on occasion for pulls I know are 100% clean. The Neon pull is not 100% clean.

which is why I sometimes fiddle drops with established anchors

[Archie]

Granted I am a beginner but my thoughts are to use the right tool for the job. You wouldn't use an ice pick to hammer in a nail just the sail that you shouldn't use a small 4mm cord with a lot of elasticity to use as a pull cord. Perhaps if packing light is an issue then leave half of the 4 pound first kit in the car as that seems a bit excessive and replace it with a proper 6 mm+ pull cord that will function properly.

[Iceaxe]

Mtbron, I think you are progressing just fine. No one dead, no one injured is always a good day. Ratagonia hasn't always had that good of luck.

My advice to those learning is don't cut your safety margins so thin. Pull chords and fiddlesticks are advanced tools, leave them home until you have the basics dialed in.

When I do carry a pull chord it's always a rope I would feel comfortable rappeling on in an emergency, which to me means 6mm minimum. YMMV