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Thread: Oregon Shooting, 10 Dead Umpqua Community College

  1. #21
    Even with gun buy back programs, there will still be guns. Even if guns are outright banned, there will still be guns.

    There's not a single law, proposal or idea that will eliminate guns from the hands of criminals.

    So instead of continuing to try to remove guns, is there any other solution that we are willing to accept that might prevent these shootings?

    The sad part is, the answer is out there, but the resistance to this idea is so political that some people won't even look at the concept.

    Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Just for the record.... one of the main reasons the 2nd amendment exists is to provide protection from our own government.... not the zombie apocalypse.
    Got it. But we as a society are heavily over-armed for such a task. A tenth of the current public armament would keep the government at bay (another invasion fantasy, by the way).

    It's like having a suitcase full of condoms for a girl that isn't even going to show up for dinner. The rest of the world looks at the suitcase and laughs.

  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Do you feel that your freedom is being infringed upon because citizens are restricted from owning tanks and rocket launchers?
    My personal view is citizens should be armed to the same level as your local police force since you face the same dangers and criminal in your neighborhood that they do.

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    There's not a single law, proposal or idea that will eliminate guns from the hands of criminals.
    Correct.

    I think of it like a chemical reaction. The less saturated the reactants are (people and weapons) the less likely an explosive reaction is to occur. Brian's Australian article is proof positive of this theorem.

    Elimination is not the goal (impossible), but reduction of violence is.

  6. Likes Absolute Gravity liked this post
  7. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sombeech View Post
    Even with gun buy back programs, there will still be guns. Even if guns are outright banned, there will still be guns.

    There's not a single law, proposal or idea that will eliminate guns from the hands of criminals.
    Sure...criminals will be criminals.

    But, in most of these high profile mass killings, the guns were legally purchased:

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...guns.html?_r=0

    The gun genie is so far out of the bottle...not sure we could ever stuff it back in.

    Its interesting to look at the continued decline of violent crime in the US and then the increase with mass shootings. Its hard to wrap one's head around. How to prevent, or, at least slow down the trend? I dunno. Some sacrifice of privacy? Its funny...I think about all the medical privacy we have, then I look at my insurance company and there's no privacy for any procedure or medication they know about. Maybe tie insurance claims for psyche drugs to background checks?

    Additional gun legislation, at least the type of major changes that would slow the trend for mass shootings, I can't imagine is in the political will of either major party especially at the national level. Ain't gonna happen.

    Some sobering data here:

    http://www.health.utah.gov/vipp/pdf/...earmDeaths.pdf

    Interesting the increase in firearm deaths in Utah is solidly related to suicide. Sad. The domestic violence issue is right up there too.

    I can't see folks who are suffering with some mental health issues, offering to surrender their firearms if they're being treated for depression, schizophrenia, etc. So then what? The state has to remove them? How would they know if they even have them? Close the "gun show loophole"...? Or, close the private sale loophole? I'll bet most of my firearms aren't registered to me. Should they be? Helps a bunch if they get stolen. Would I care if the government knows I have them? I'm not sure. I don't have a concealed carry permit partly for that reason (why advertise?).

    I'm a fairly enthusiastic firearms owner. I think I could tolerate some changes.

  8. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    My personal view is citizens should be armed to the same level as your local police force since you face the same dangers and criminal in your neighborhood that they do.
    Don't you live in that hell hole of death and violence that is Sandy or Draper? Even in that cauldron of misery I think a good stink eye would be good enough. Maybe a baseball bat if you are extra sissy.

  9. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Absolute Gravity View Post
    Don't you live in that hell hole of death and violence that is Sandy or Draper? Even in that cauldron of misery I think a good stink eye would be good enough. Maybe a baseball bat if you are extra sissy.
    Hey, I was just expressing my personal view. And on that level I'm probably better armed than many small nations so I'm good. It gives me a big warm fuzzy feeling to know I have the means to carry out a small war and don't have a need to relay on others.... your mileage may vary.

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  11. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    My personal view is citizens should be armed to the same level as your local police force since you face the same dangers and criminal in your neighborhood that they do.
    Citizens do not face the same dangers that police do. Police are called toward danger, citizens are not.

    That's like saying everyone should own a firetruck because you believe that you face the same dangers that firefighters do.

    *final thought about dangers of Draper deleted* - Tony beat me to it.


  12. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Hey, I was just expressing my personal view. And on that level I'm probably better armed than many small nations so I'm good. It gives me a big warm fuzzy feeling to know I have the means to carry out a small war and don't have a need to relay on others.... your mileage may vary.
    I'm with ya. When the great Hordes of the Midvale invade Sandystan they won't know what hit 'em.

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  14. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    Citizens do not face the same dangers that police do.
    This conversation is obviously over if we disagree on this basic issue as I believe the average citizen faces the exact same criminals as the police do. I'll agree that LEO faces these criminals on a more constant bases, but it's still the same criminal. And a little FWIW... LEO carrys firearms to protect themselves, not to protect you.

    It's better to have and not need than to need and not have.

    I'm outta here...

  15. #31
    Having just got back from an international trip (Austria and Slovenia with a night in Cortina Italy), had thoughts about my safety related to travel. Went to Turkey last year and had a GREAT trip, but, with all the goings on next door...I'm kinda glad to have gone when I did.

    So...quick internet search for the safest and least safe places to travel:

    http://www.abcnewspoint.com/top-10-s...he-world-2015/

    No surprise to see Austria on that list. I've traveled a fair bit to western Europe and I never felt like I couldn't leave the car with our luggage most anywhere we went. People friendly. Great spot to visit.

    http://www.abcnewspoint.com/top-10-m...he-world-2015/

    Amusing to see US on the list, between Iraq and Sudan. What was even funnier...was the guy with the AK in the photo of Sudan...with a pile of grass in the bore of his rifle! Scary stuff.

    I dunno...I'd probably visit NYC before Yemen...

  16. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    It's better to have and not need than to need and not have.
    Come on Shane, you know this is BS. How much 'better to have' do you carry on your rack? That 10th rappel device is as useless as your 10th gun.

  17. #33
    Oh, don't go Ice. I'm having so much fun learning about gun-ownership fantasies!

    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    This conversation is obviously over if we disagree on this basic issue as I believe the average citizen faces the exact same criminals as the police do.
    I don't remember the last time I chased down an armed robber. Or busted a meth lab full of armed criminals. Or slowly chased a murderer on the freeway who's driving a white Ford Bronco. Or even pulled somebody over for running a stop sign.

    So, citizens almost never face the same criminals.

    My old man has the "better to have" fantasy, where he heroically shoots some dude in the face that is trying to steal his... well, crap, I'm not sure what my old man owns that is worth stealing. But, in his mind it's worth having a gunfight over.

    Probably his 1970's waterbed.

  18. #34
    It's a good thing all you Americans aren't Germans.

    The last time such numbers of deaths by bullet occurred in a so-called western civilisation was in 1939.

  19. #35
    First responders do just that...respond.

    The one thing that these guys all have in common is that they're freaks. They have no one...no nookie, no friends, no intimate or physical contact at all. Lack of that, over time, will make a man nuts. These guys are the dorks of the dorks. They don't need a stinkin' gun to carry out carnage, either. Just dive into the dark web and look up "How to cause mass casualties without a gun". The only problem I have with people and guns is that these morons are able to shoot themselves in the head.

    I personally lay some of the blame on the media. Not for the coverage of these events, but in how they go on and on about how "someone has to pay" if you look in the mirror and see some kind of problem. Blame the "gun culture"? Nah...blame retards and the fact that they're eyes are glued to the T.V. and media prodding them on.

    I saw the same thing when I lived in L.A. just before the Rodney King verdict came down. Those "preachers", and the news stations, had that stinking mess down there all whipped up.
    Let's go logic for a moment...

  20. #36

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  22. #37
    ...
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  23. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    ...

    Not often we see Scott speechless...

  24. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob L View Post
    It's a good thing all you Americans aren't Germans.

    The last time such numbers of deaths by bullet occurred in a so-called western civilisation was in 1939.
    Since you brought up Germany I assume you don't know that the atrocities happened AFTER the German people were disarmed.....


    A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

    Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

    Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

    56 million defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control:

    Funny how these numbers never make the evening news.

    With guns, we are "citizens". Without them, we are "subjects".


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  26. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    With guns, we are "citizens". Without them, we are "subjects".
    With the average number of "citizens" dying from firearms averaging around 40,000 per year, uhhh...my math shows 1 million American deaths by firearms in 25 years. We could also call these "citizens"...."victims".

    1 million. That's kind of a lot.

    Yeah, freedom isn't free.

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