Keyhole flash flood deaths

[flatiron]

Heavy rain was already falling late Wednesday, and at least one person died in flash floods in Spartanburg, officials said.
Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe on Wednesday declared a state of emergency, and North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory ordered state agencies to prepare for floods.

Now that is a smart sharp relevant post, huh? Makes a good connection to canyoneering, and the knowledge and decision making process of accessing danger while doing so.

Nice cheap shot - well done sir.

[Bo_Beck]

Now that is a smart sharp relevant post, huh? Makes a good connection to canyoneering, and the knowledge and decision making process of accessing danger while doing so.

Nice cheap shot - well done sir.

OK Then! How often have you heard of the folks that refuse to abandon their properties or locale even though the warnings are of emminent Hurricane, Cyclone, Typhoon, Tornadoes? How often have these warnings suggested not to drive across a swollen, flowing street and they figured they could anyway? People are curious, and impatient. (period). Gee willigers! Suckin' a cumra! Have at it!

[harness man]

There is definitely a relevant point here (do not see any cheap shots- especially with Bo's search and rescue cred).
A comment was made earlier about fishing being a safe sport, but of all the lightning deaths in the U.S. every year many of them are fisherman.
One of the determinative causes: people ignore "chance of thunderstorm" warnings.
Ironically, they will usually stay home if it is raining.
"human nature" is an important consideration when trying to prevent future tragedies.

[accadacca]

I don't think a "skill assessment" makes any sense, but what about watching a video that talks about canyoneering at a high level and includes flash flood dangers?

[flatiron]

OK Then! How often have you heard of the folks that refuse to abandon their properties or locale even though the warnings are of emminent Hurricane, Cyclone, Typhoon, Tornadoes? How often have these warnings suggested not to drive across a swollen, flowing street and they figured they could anyway? People are curious, and impatient. (period). Gee willigers! Suckin' a cumra! Have at it!

Gee willigers yourself. So your point is people are impatient and curious, nothing we can do, nothing to learn, just move on?
I know you are SAR but that seems incredibly cynical. Do you NOT believe in educating noobs? Or anyone?
Or maybe you know something about this group we don't? Please tell us ! Was this caused by impatience?

Again, what does your point have to do with canyoneering?
This group was described as 'experienced hikers' by friends and family. My point was and is that experienced hiker is not relevant when is comes to canyoneering. There is a uniqueness to canyons, and of the dangers from rain/weather unlike other areas. Unique from your flooding in VA or NC. Monsoonal rain, slick rock, size of drainage, speed of group ( are they fast, moderate or slow noobs), do they have climbing skills, etc. If not knowledgeable they are in danger, if so it will be an enormous help.
I think it is possible and wise to TRY and help and educate newcomers/out of staters of these differences. If they choose to be impatient, or curious, or not educate themselves so be it.

I believe the canyoneering community can, and maybe, should try to help. Especially newcomers.
Ya know, like Park Rangers explaining that the 50% chance of rain is at 4pm, but only 5% from 8-3pm. Our monsoon season means it is clear in the morning but storms in pm, do the canyon NOW. That slickrock exponentially increases rainwater size and force, that the canyon you have a permit for has a big drainage and might not be safe even hours after rain, etc.

How about canyoneering courses/Guide Services teaching these elements and not just how to rap and tie knots? Maybe they do I hope so, I have not taken one. I do know the climbing class I took taught weather, safety, map & compass, gear, clothing, etc.
Maybe I'm way off but it seems to me that knowledge of how rain and weather work in conjunction with slot canyons is pretty vital info. Maybe the best beta a person can have.

Is that too much? Is that out of line? I understand each person/group has the final responsibility but I do not believe we are all condemned by our impatience or curiosity.
So maybe we shall agree to disagree.

[harness man]

Hi Flatiron
Are you a Zion Express member at Zion Park, or have you picked up permits at the visitor's center?
I think they provide a very thorough warning including many of the points you discuss.
I am a climber (like yourself, I assume) and I look at canyoneering like mountaineering (the packs are certainly big!).
When I go into the wilderness to bag a peak I do NOT expect hand holding from any government agency, and wonder
why anyone else would.
It will be very disappointing to me if Canyons get treated like commercial rock climbing gyms (and I LIKE rock climbing gyms).
Really am unsure where there is any disagreement?
None of us want people hurt in canyons...

[Mountaineer]

I don't think a "skill assessment" makes any sense, but what about watching a video that talks about canyoneering at a high level and includes flash flood dangers?

That is in place today?

[Iceaxe]

I don't think a "skill assessment" makes any sense, but what about watching a video that talks about canyoneering at a high level and includes flash flood dangers?

How about the government just gets completely out of the business of being our mommy.

[uintafly]

How about the government just gets completely out of the business of being our mommy.

Wouldn't that be nice!!! Let's manage the canyons the same way we manage backcountry skiing. The gov't provides some cash for UAC and grateful users donate some as well, but if I die in an avalanche it's still 100% my fault.

[deagol]

I have to agree with the idea of not asking the NPS to "do more to protect us from nature". This accident was a tragedy, no doubt, but it was also not the end of the world (that statement sounds way more cynical than I want it to, but can't think of better words right now). People have a responsibility to educate themselves and to protect themselves, and taking a class does not do all of that. More rules can't protect people from serious bad luck or bad judgment without impacting the rest of us to an unacceptable degree IMO. I don't believe canyoneering is the right pursuit for people who want a nanny state.

To answer the question "nothing to do, nothing to learn, just move on?": I think there, of course, are "things to learn" from this incident but not that those things translate into a need to impose another layer of rules. One of the things to learn is that there is no substitute for good judgment. If any group does need to make some changes, it would be Meetup groups like this, not the NPS.
Another one: no matter what you tell (i.e. the printed warning for the permit) many people will just ignore it. This ties right back into judgment and maybe even hubris?

As some probably heard, another person just died on Long's Peak (since Long's Peak was used as example in this thread) and there seems to be no push to clamp down on that pursuit.

[accadacca]

That is in place today?

Is it required for anyone who enters a canyon in Zion?

[Bo_Beck]

Gee willigers yourself. So your point is people are impatient and curious, nothing we can do, nothing to learn, just move on?
I know you are SAR but that seems incredibly cynical. Do you NOT believe in educating noobs? Or anyone?
Or maybe you know something about this group we don't? Please tell us ! Was this caused by impatience?

Again, what does your point have to do with canyoneering?
This group was described as 'experienced hikers' by friends and family. My point was and is that experienced hiker is not relevant when is comes to canyoneering. There is a uniqueness to canyons, and of the dangers from rain/weather unlike other areas. Unique from your flooding in VA or NC. Monsoonal rain, slick rock, size of drainage, speed of group ( are they fast, moderate or slow noobs), do they have climbing skills, etc. If not knowledgeable they are in danger, if so it will be an enormous help.
I think it is possible and wise to TRY and help and educate newcomers/out of staters of these differences. If they choose to be impatient, or curious, or not educate themselves so be it.

I believe the canyoneering community can, and maybe, should try to help. Especially newcomers.
Ya know, like Park Rangers explaining that the 50% chance of rain is at 4pm, but only 5% from 8-3pm. Our monsoon season means it is clear in the morning but storms in pm, do the canyon NOW. That slickrock exponentially increases rainwater size and force, that the canyon you have a permit for has a big drainage and might not be safe even hours after rain, etc.

How about canyoneering courses/Guide Services teaching these elements and not just how to rap and tie knots? Maybe they do I hope so, I have not taken one. I do know the climbing class I took taught weather, safety, map & compass, gear, clothing, etc.
Maybe I'm way off but it seems to me that knowledge of how rain and weather work in conjunction with slot canyons is pretty vital info. Maybe the best beta a person can have.

Is that too much? Is that out of line? I understand each person/group has the final responsibility but I do not believe we are all condemned by our impatience or curiosity.
So maybe we shall agree to disagree.

I'll try to come straight to the point I had tried to make.
RISK ASSESSMENT!
It happens every second of every living moment. It doesn't hide itself in canyoneering, driving to school or work, walking the dog, playing the slots in a casino, eating ripe olives......anywhere...anytime. Should I chomp down hard on a pitted olive? Should I push through the yellow light? Should I walk the dog in front of the house with the big german shepard? Should I put another nickle in the slot machine?
Every individual can and does make choices every moment of every day. My choice of replying to your doubt of my intent is not without risk based on the sensitivity of the topic. I choose to take the risk and live with any retribution. Related to Canyoneering: Yes..the weather report generally has a lot to do with my personal risk assessment. I have a choice to make based on information given.

[harness man]

A few years ago, two noobs (Desi and I) pulled up to the upper trailhead to do Mystery Canyon for the first time.
At the trail head, an experienced group of four canyoneers were just leaving also for Mystery.
One of them said hello to us, politely inquired what canyon we were doing, then departed with his group.
When we approached the drop in, and were fiddling with map, compass, and beta to make SURE of the canyon head....
The same gentleman appears again, pointing the way to the correct drainage, checking with us on our rope lengths, and warning about the death gulley.
HE HAD LEFT HIS GROUP AND HIKED BACK 1/4 MILE TO CHECK ON TWO STRANGERS
Years later we met this same fellow again, this time making a 'sales call' with our rope bags at the Desert Rat.
He was (the legendary) Bo Beck.
Story told to illustrate the type of person Bo is:
One who really cares about people

[flatiron]

I'll try to come straight to the point I had tried to make.
RISK ASSESSMENT!
It happens every second of every living moment. It doesn't hide itself in canyoneering, driving to school or work, walking the dog, playing the slots in a casino, eating ripe olives......anywhere...anytime. Should I chomp down hard on a pitted olive? Should I push through the yellow light? Should I walk the dog in front of the house with the big german shepard? Should I put another nickle in the slot machine?
Every individual can and does make choices every moment of every day. My choice of replying to your doubt of my intent is not without risk based on the sensitivity of the topic. I choose to take the risk and live with any retribution. Related to Canyoneering: Yes..the weather report generally has a lot to do with my personal risk assessment. I have a choice to make based on information given.

Look we agree on all with 1 exception. I too absolutely believe in personal risk assessment, and responsibility.
But how do you judge risk?
All of those examples have nothing to do with the uniqueness of slots. Everyone of those examples is something people for the most part have done or do on a daily basis. They have Prior knowledge and experience to judge. Then maybe they are impatient or curious and make a bad decision with bad consequences.
That in my opinion, maybe you know better, was NOT what happened with this group.

My point is HOW do you judge risk if you have never done it before?
In the case of doing slot canyons, my knowledge as a noob means I know next to nothing about the risk. My experience as a hiker means very little. So how do I make a risk assessment? How do I make risk assessment hiking to 20K' if I have never it done before? Does my being an 'experienced canyoneer' prepare me? No.

I do not want layers of rules and regs. But I do think as a community maybe we can try to teach and educate.
Is it the canyon comm responsibility? No. Should it try to help? Yes.
Personally don't you do same when you take noobs out to do canyons, climb, hike. Of course. I would bet everyone on this forum does same. I doubt anyone just leaves the risk assessment to the noob/friend/child you take out the 1st time. Maybe we can think of all noobs that way - since everyone was a noob once.

[Bo_Beck]

Look we agree on all with 1 exception. I too absolutely believe in personal risk assessment, and responsibility.
But how do you judge risk?
All of those examples have nothing to do with the uniqueness of slots. Everyone of those examples is something people for the most part have done or do on a daily basis. They have Prior knowledge and experience to judge. Then maybe they are impatient or curious and make a bad decision with bad consequences.
That in my opinion, maybe you know better, was NOT what happened with this group.

My point is HOW do you judge risk if you have never done it before?
In the case of doing slot canyons, my knowledge as a noob means I know next to nothing about the risk. My experience as a hiker means very little. So how do I make a risk assessment? How do I make risk assessment hiking to 20K' if I have never it done before? Does my being an 'experienced canyoneer' prepare me? No.

I do not want layers of rules and regs. But I do think as a community maybe we can try to teach and educate.
Is it the canyon comm responsibility? No. Should it try to help? Yes.
Personally don't you do same when you take noobs out to do canyons, climb, hike. Of course. I would bet everyone on this forum does same. I doubt anyone just leaves the risk assessment to the noob/friend/child you take out the 1st time. Maybe we can think of all noobs that way - since everyone was a noob once.

I think we are on the same page.To attempt an answer to our one lingering unknown, I'd just have to say...weather forecasting is a science, but not an exact science. Just like odds at a casino, a person has to determine whether or not they're willing to try and defy those odds? At a casino my life isn't at stake so I may lose some money...oh well. Does this response make sense to you? I'm going to try my best to insure the odds are in my favor when canyoneering because my life is at stake. I think there isn't really anything that can be taught in regards to a decision about whether or not to go. It's a personal intuitive decision. If you are a risk taker and feel that you can beat the odds, then you'll probably go. If you are more conservative, you don't put your last dollar in the slot machine. Everyone is fed information, and it's up to them to use it the way they feel appropriate. Just had a good talk with Jeff Lowe a few hours ago, and he beat the odds many times and still is. Others weren't as fortunate, inexperienced as well as extremely experienced. A problem I see is that the propagation of "New Canyoneers" is like the propagation of Jack Rabbits on the plains. I believe that with the advent of media, social media, and the sheer numbers wanting to get involved, the sport is perceived as a simple, low risk activity, therefore folks are venturing out on their own and believing they already have the skills necessary.

If there's a lesson that can be learned, I think this sums it up pretty well?

A quote from Jeffs Bio:
Ralph's climbing techniques were old school and rough, but Jeff can't remember any close calls. His dad seemed to have things under control and instilled in the kids the absolute need to be responsible for their own actions. Those were wonderful, simpler times when safety was not looked for or found in gear, but rather was expected of each individual.

No mal-intent with my response, nor any chest thumping. I work at an outdoor equipment store, and am confronted with "New Canyoneers" every day. I try to be informative and be as up-front as possible. Never do I wish harm to anyone involved, or becoming involved in the sport.

[ratagonia]

Is it required for anyone who enters a canyon in Zion?

Context for this---

[Mountaineer]

Context for this---

In regards to the video idea, there is one already in place. Next to the wilderness desk. One purpose is that you must watch it to become an express member. The ranger talks about flash flood risks there. Seems to meet the need and issue.

[Mac]

In regards to the video idea, there is one already in place. Next to the wilderness desk. One purpose is that you must watch it to become an express member. The ranger talks about flash flood risks there. Seems to meet the need and issue.

You can view the video at home before you leave also.

http://www.nps.gov/zion/learn/photos...ringsafety.htm

Mac

[Glenn]

I knew there were backcountry videos at the Wilderness desk, but didn't know there were ones about Canyoneering. Thanks for the link, Mac.

[Rob L]

Shirley about time that rather dated video got updated and became targeted at canyoneers, rather than (as it seems) aimed at casual canyoneers AND the general Narrows-tourist public.

It's good that they emphasise rope knowledge and skills, but show some proper flash flood footage, and not a "gentle meandering of twigs".

Rob