Hot for Teacher - Brianne Altice Sentenced

[Slot Machine]

*freindly tone*

*looking for an intelligent discussion*

I have to disagree on the "ready" part. No one is "ready" for sex unless they are ready for the consequences both financially and emotionally,

LOL, many of the parents I know will never be ready to support their children financially (think of the parents living in grandma and grandpa's basements). So this is no argument.

And what are the emotional consequences? Broken hearts? How are we defining emotionally ready, so that we can talk about the same thing? And why do we have to be ready emotionally? Because our brains will explode if not prepared? I don't think I'd get anything done if I was emotionally prepared for every event in life. (ex. Who is really ready for their fist kid? Anyone?)

i.e. a lifetime of support payments for any resulting babies and 20+ years devoted to the task.

Being able to pay for support payments is NOT a prerequisite for sex. Pu-lease. The population of the planet would total 1,000 humans, if true.

I don't know of a single 16 year old that is "ready."

If you visit the lobby of your local Planned Parenthood for an hour, you will meet a dozen of them. And remember, ready in your eyes is not the same as ready in their eyes. Their definition of ready, whatever it may be, is what I'm talking about.

Looking back, I sure was ready at 16! And I've known many many other folks ready at that age. And known many many that were not (to be fair).

Pretending ready and willing 16-year-olds don't exist, is no argument that they don't exist.

I have a good friend who was "ready" at that age, and has regretted it ever since. He ended up supporting a child that he barely even knew in a far away place.

I also have friends like this. It is unfortunate that they couldn't figure out how to use condoms. Very simple devices, those things. And a slew of other options to prevent this situation, but I'd rather not veer too far from the main topic...

a person losing her freedom for having sex with willing participants, that in most corners of the planet, are considered old enough.

*veering the topic back on track*

[dougr]

Those saying so what, no victims... do we have any standards in society worth defending? If teachers and minors can get it on, doesn't this just further deconstruct the society we once had built? Seems like there's a misunderstanding by most people now about what the purpose of rules, morality, and law are. They aren't to enable the maximum amount of personal activity, they are to ensure the civilization continues. We aren't on a trajectory of continuing our civilization at this point, and this is another pebble on the scale tilting it that way.

[Iceaxe]

First off... I disagree with attempting to legislate morality.... so after that your entire argument falls apart in my eyes.

[Slot Machine]

Those saying so what, no victims... do we have any standards in society worth defending?

If you would like to start a "standards in society" thread, I'd be happy to play. However, I'm not going to hijack this thread on your behalf.

Perhaps call the thread, "Old Men Yelling at Kids on Lawns".



A question for you, @dougr -

If your 16-year-old son came home from school and said, "I've been banging my teacher, Dad, and man, it's been awesome! In fact, I've been over to her house a dozen times over the past three months!".

Then, would you say, "She should be incarcerated for 2-30 years!" ?

If not, then what is your idea of justice in this case?

[BruteForce]

Oh, if only I could have been *victimized* by a school teacher like her back in the day.

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

Bottom line: I don't think adults should be having sex with minors, some others here obviously think that is OK. I seem to recall that some here were opposed to having gay scout leaders, for fear that they might have sex with minors. I don't see how the situation in the original post is any different.

Also, I'm a teacher myself, so I know all about the potential for abuse. The first rule of teaching: keep your pants zipped and your hands off the students.
My objection to the teacher in the original post was that she knowingly engaged in a crime, and now wants to cry about being held responsible. Next time I get arrested for a felony, I'll try using the same argument and see where it gets me.

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

*freindly tone*

*looking for an intelligent discussion*

If you visit the lobby of your local Planned Parenthood for an hour, you will meet a dozen of them. And remember, ready in your eyes is not the same as ready in their eyes. Their definition of ready, whatever it may be, is what I'm talking about.

Pretending ready and willing 16-year-olds don't exist, is no argument that they don't exist.

I'm with you on this. When my step daughter turned 16 a few years ago, my wife marched her down to Planned Parenthood and put her on the pill. No questions about are you sexually active or do you want to be. Just assume that she will be and do what we can to keep her safe and un-pregnant.

Hey, we all wanted to be sexually active when we were teens. I just cannot abide by the mixing of adults and minors. As my Dad used to say: "Pick on somebody your own size."

[rockgremlin]

LOL. Thoroughly enjoying this thread. I think the term "YMMV" (your mileage may vary) applies here. I'm positive there exists on this planet many 16 year olds that are ready for sex...probably not the majority, but nevertheless they do exist. Who's to say that the three guys that were involved with Brianne weren't ready? Along that same vein, who's to say Brianne didn't already have contraception installed and therefore knew these kids wouldn't impregnate her, basically releasing them from any possible long term financial responsibility?

There's a LOT of fine print that didn't make it into the full story, which makes it easy to be an armchair judge.

Personally, I disagree with Brianne's actions, but I think 30 years in prison is way too excessive. Hell, there's murderers that get sentences less than that. Are these three horny teenagers getting tried and convicted? And if not, why? They were willing participants in this heinous activity. Just sayin'...

[Slot Machine]

Good post @rockgremlin , I agree with most of it except,

Are these three horny teenagers getting tried and convicted? And if not, why? They were willing participants in this heinous activity. Just sayin'...

I've seen several people say similar things on comment boards attached to numerous news articles (like KSL, Tribune and such). I have zero idea what anyone is talking about.

Being a willing participant in ANY of these activities (as a student or as a 16/17 year old) is not a crime. It was a free ride for them, in all aspects (see what I did there?).

Please explain if I am missing something.

[Slot Machine]

Bottom line: I don't think adults should be having sex with minors, some others here obviously think that it is OK for willing 16 and 17 year olds to have sex with whoever they want.

Fixed that for you. Sex with minors implies all minors.

seem to recall that some here were opposed to having gay scout leaders, for fear that they might have sex with minors. I don't see how the situation in the original post is any different.

A hijackerous thought. It is somewhat different, because we are only talking about 16+ year olds. And we are not talking about gay scout leaders.

Also, I'm a teacher myself, so I know all about the potential for abuse. The first rule of teaching: keep your pants zipped and your hands off the students.
My objection to the teacher in the original post was that she knowingly engaged in a crime, and now wants to cry about being held responsible. Next time I get arrested for a felony, I'll try using the same argument and see where it gets me.

I think, perhaps, that you are not separating the crime itself from the abuse of her professional position. A teacher sleeping with an 18 year old student is not a crime. A teacher in Evanston, 60 miles away, sleeping with a 16 year old student is not a crime. A teacher in Utah sleeping with an 17 year old student is committing a crime, but not because she is a teacher, and not because he is a student.

It is difficult to separate out the all of the unsavory behavior in this case, sex with three students, then again when out on bail, while married, etc, etc. But important to do so in order to see the injustice, IMO. Because all participants were willing, sending her to prison seems medieval, not that different than marking her with a scarlet letter.

I DO see things from your perspective as a teacher. And I do find it repugnant, and worthy of losing her license forever, but not felonious. I was surprised to discover there are no laws prohibiting student/teacher relations, after researching this case a bit.

I'm with you on this. When my step daughter turned 16 a few years ago, my wife marched her down to Planned Parenthood and put her on the pill. No questions about are you sexually active or do you want to be. Just assume that she will be and do what we can to keep her safe and un-pregnant.

Hey, we all wanted to be sexually active when we were teens. I just cannot abide by the mixing of 16/17 year olds with older people. As my Dad used to say: "Pick on somebody your own size."

*continued friendly tone*

Fixed that for you, again, so we can continue to talk about the same thing.


BTW, I'm the same size I was when I was 16. Unfortunately.

[Slot Machine]

And what kind of BS is a 2-30 year sentence?
The judge was just fine being a slut-shaming tyrant, but when it came time to picking a number... "Uh, 2-30 years, that seems reasonable."

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

And what kind of BS is a 2-30 year sentence?
The judge was just fine being a slut-shaming tyrant, but when it came time to picking a number... "Uh, 2-30 years, that seems reasonable."

I agree that the upper bound sentence is way out of line.

My views are likely skewed by recent experiences with my 16 year old niece who is really hot and thus attracts lots of guys but who is also desperate to defy her mom. She seems to revel in outrageous behavior. She has a 22 year old "boyfriend" we have been trying to run off without success. He is a bad character (describes himself as a pimp) and it's hard to see her naively tell us she is in love and wants to marry him.

The law has to draw the line somewhere and arguments can be made for lower ages (more freedom, more risk of abuse) and a higher age (less freedom, less risk of abuse). I simply choose the later.

[Slot Machine]

I agree that the upper bound sentence is way out of line.

My views are likely skewed by recent experiences with my 16 year old niece who is really hot and thus attracts lots of guys but who is also desperate to defy her mom. She seems to revel in outrageous behavior. She has a 22 year old "boyfriend" we have been trying to run off without success. He is a bad character (describes himself as a pimp) and it's hard to see her naively tell us she is in love and wants to marry him.

Does she live in Utah? If so, get yourself a lawyer and send that pimp to prison! Problem solved!

The law has to draw the line somewhere and arguments can be made for lower ages (more freedom, more risk of abuse) and a higher age (less freedom, less risk of abuse). I simply choose the later.

Indeed, the line does have to be drawn somewhere.

When I'm trying to draw lines in my own life, I normally try to consult with someone smarter than myself, in order to make the best decision possible.

In this case, I would consult with our cultured and notoriously happy friend, Europe.

The ages of consent vary by jurisdiction across Europe. The ages of consent are currently set between 14 and 18. The vast majority of countries set their ages in the range of 14 to 16; only six countries, Ireland (17), Cyprus (17), Malta (18), Turkey (18) and Vatican (18), do not fit into this pattern.

Vast majority 14-16? Huh. Seems like total mayhem over there. Or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

[rockgremlin]

Vast majority 14-16? Huh. Seems like total mayhem over there. Or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Geez, first Greece's economy $hits the bed and now this? What's next?

[tanya]

According to the news: A mom of one of Brianne’s victims wasn’t sympathetic to whatever personal turmoil led her to abuse her son. She told the court that he was irretrievably damaged psychologically and emotionally by the sexual relationship, and testified that Altice’s own children are also victims.


Brianne initially faced 14 felonies, including rape, but was sentenced with up to 30 years in prison for three felony counts of forcible sexual abuse.





You have to understand that any woman who is having sex with teens is not mentally stable, but it's not just sex that's the problem. This mentally disturbed woman was in a position to manipulate these kids and change their way of being forever. A teen, boy or girl, needs to go through the process of acceptance from someone their age. It's mentally healthy. Having a teacher who these kids should be looking up to and respecting, luring them into sexual situations is damaging.

Lot's of teen girls are looking for men in their 40's. Do you know why? How would you feel if your daughter was doing it? Girls do this because they are mentally incapable of having a relationship with someone of their own age and other reasons that are more complex and very sad. They are not mentally healthy. A 16 year old girl who would let a man pick her up and then have sex with her is mentally disturbed.

The boys are no different, but they are in a position where certain sects of the population think it's okay to jump anything with a skirt as soon as they are able, but that does not bring forth the type of man we admire in our society. What does, is if they lust for a teacher, which is natural, and then they are shot down immediately and forced to respect her. This helps to develop a healthy brain that fits in with the better parts of our society.

[Slot Machine]

Great post Tanya
.
*friendly tone* *happy you are joining the discussion*

According to the news: A mom of one of Brianne’s victims wasn’t sympathetic to whatever personal turmoil led her to abuse her son. She told the court that he was irretrievably damaged psychologically and emotionally by the sexual relationship, and testified that Altice’s own children are also victims.

If my mommy testified against all the girls playing kissy-face with me when I was 16, each of them would have met their fate in the gas chamber. I’m unsure why his mommy’s testimony is admissible in court.

Brianne initially faced 14 felonies, including rape, but was sentenced with up to 30 years in prison for three felony counts of forcible sexual abuse.

Charging her with 14 felonies was a bully tactic used by the prosecution to force a plea deal. If I was her, I would have pleaded innocent to all counts and forced to whole thing to a trail. I think it would have been tough to convict her if a jury would have heard the testimonies of the boys. From what I’ve read, it sounded (sincerely) like all of them had a great time, and that none of them were victims.

You have to understand that any woman who is having sex with teens is not mentally stable, but it's not just sex that's the problem.

I’ve known many mentally unstable women, but consider none of their behavior to be felonious. I see several problems with Altice's behavior (probably overlapping with the problems you see), but deem none of those behaviors worthy of prison time.

This mentally disturbed woman was in a position to manipulate these kids and change their way of being forever.

Mentally unstable women DO have a knack for changing ‘your way of being’ forever. Annoying as it may be, it is not a worthy of incarceration.

A teen, boy or girl, needs to go through the process of acceptance from someone their age. It's mentally healthy. Having a teacher who these kids should be looking up to and respecting, luring them into sexual situations is damaging.

I’m not convinced the process of acceptance is a ‘need’. Probably a healthy thing to do, but not a need.

If I was one of those boys, my desire to cash in on a once-in-a-lifetime-hot-teacher-Penthouse-moment would surpass my desire to consume food.

Could you paint a clearer picture as to how these 16/17 year old boys were damaged? I’m not seeing it, especially after reading their testimonies. Could you find a single quote that shows that these boys are now damaged? (A quote not from one of their mommies.)

Lot's of teen girls are looking for men in their 40's. Do you know why?

Why are we suddenly talking about teen girls? Pretty sure we should treat boys/girls the same in this situation.


To answer your question, because older guys have game. Houses, cars and money. The dude sitting next to them in math class can’t take them to Cancun for spring break. Easiest question I’ve ever answered.

How would you feel if your daughter was doing it?

Grooooossssssed out! But I would not be looking to take anyone’s freedom.


I remember how capabable and interested all boys and girls were when I was 16. Talking to my brother-in-law Tyler @Doomedty opened my eyes even more. He was on a mission to nail every daughter/mom/sister/grandmother/teacher/crossing guard/principal’s wife at that age, and was remarkably successful.


Was he a victim at that age? Certainly not. I wouldn’t consider a similarly-wired daughter to be a victim either (if I had a daughter).

Girls do this because they are mentally incapable of having a relationship with someone of their own age and other reasons that are more complex and very sad. They are not mentally healthy. A 16 year old girl who would let a man pick her up and then have sex with her is mentally disturbed.

I disagree. Because the concept is unusual and uncomfortable to you or I does not qualify her (or him) as mentally disturbed.

The boys are no different, but they are in a position where certain sects of the population think it's okay to jump anything with a skirt as soon as they are able, but that does not bring forth the type of man we admire in our society. What does, is if they lust for a teacher, which is natural, and then they are shot down immediately and forced to respect her. This helps to develop a healthy brain that fits in with the better parts of our society.

Well put Tanya, and as a matter of taste I agree. But diverting from this recipe, when all parties are willing, is not a reason to take another person’s freedom, wouldn’t you say?

[Iceaxe]

When I was sixteen I would have banged the hell out of Altice every chance I got. I would have bragged about it to my friends. My dad would have given me a high five, my mom would have given me some meaningless talk about how I was going to hell. But by all accounts no crime would have been committed.

/DISCUSSION

[Slot Machine]

I dug up a transcript from one of the court hearings. The conversation is an excerpt between the youngest victim, John Conner, 16 years old, and Judge Thomas Kay.

Judge: “Mr. Conner, is it true that you had sexual relations with Ms. Altice?”

Mr. Conner: “Yes, Your Honor, this is true.”

Judge: “Mr. Conner, when you had sexual relations with Ms. Altice, did she get on top of you, or did you get on top of her?”

Mr. Conner: “I got on her, Your Honor.”

Judge: “Mr. Conner, when you got on her, did you stay on her?”

Mr. Conner: “Your Honor, once I got on her, I stayed on her. Scout’s honor.”

Judge: “Did you feel like a victim afterwards, Mr. Conner?”

Mr. Conner: “No, Your Honor. Getting on her felt like an honor.”
___________

These are not the words of a victim! Nobody should go to prison for a victimless crime!

Below is a photograph of the convicted felon predator Brianne Altice.


And an artist’s depiction of her bedroom once she gets released from prison.

[rockgremlin]

I agree with the above two posts. No way in hell these horned up boys were victims in any way. If anything their status around campus just got a permanent boost to stardom amongst their friends and peers. You can probably count with two hands the number of high fives each of these three kids get every day. Granted, in our society this behavior is frowned upon, but propriety is rarely worthy of admiration in the halls of the average high school.

[dougr]

I agree with the above two posts. No way in hell these horned up boys were victims in any way. If anything their status around campus just got a permanent boost to stardom amongst their friends and peers. You can probably count with two hands the number of high fives each of these three kids get every day. Granted, in our society this behavior is frowned upon, but propriety is rarely worthy of admiration in the halls of the average high school.

So the standards of society are based on high fives in HS? That's exactly wrong. Just a sickening comment that can't be serious.

You don't get the big picture. The guys don't know they're victims. But what is raising kids about, if not for guiding them when they don't know what's best? They now are very likely permanently scarred in terms of what to expect from relationships, boundaries between adults and children, and the standards of civilized society.

I would not want some of the values expressed in this thread anywhere near my kids. Such utter lack of wisdom and decency in many of the comments.

edit: Let me add this. I was a high school math teacher for 5 years. The thought of violating the deep trust I had between my kids and their parents is unthinkable. Have you considered that? Parents have a right to raise their kids as they wish and exposed to what they wish.

I worked hard at having fun with my students in the classroom while maintaining proper respect for me, the school, and the subject. I worked hard to do my (very) small part in producing decent citizens. Yet I'm a chump, kids who live cleanly are chumps, and criminals like her are to be laughed off and tacitly admired. I'm disappointed in so much in here. I would expect these comments in male teen banter, but not here.