Passing a knot

[Skeeter]

Prior to arriving the knot in the rope I need to stop so I can bypass the knot. The figure I attached doesn't lock the rappel device and uses 3rd hand to get to a complete stop before the knot. Since I'm not using a third hand, I had to lock my CRITR device above the knot (prior to setting the PMMO)...locking off the CRITR above the knot creates a ~6' separation from the point in the rope in which I started the locking off to the knot itself. I hope this makes sense...I'll try the other options later this week...I hope that after practicing the various options, the optimal solution will jump at me

I follow what you are saying.

[burnsdye]

Nothing wrong with anything anyone else has said, but there is a much easier way. If you're rappelling with an autoblock, you don't need anything else than what you have with you.

Gear needed:

• sling
• carabiner

Steps:

1. Use the sling to tie a Klemheist or Bachmann Hitch on the rappel rope above the belay device and attach it to your harness with the carabiner
2. Remove your rappel device and reattach it below the knot
3. Grab the Klemheist/Bachmann with your hand and pull down on it to lower yourself until you weight the rappel device
4. Untie the Klemheist/Bachmann
5. Continue rappelling

[nkanarik]

Nothing wrong with anything anyone else has said, but there is a much easier way. If you're rappelling with an autoblock, you don't need anything else than what you have with you.

I usually don't use autoblock while rappeling...this is why I asked the question :). I do have VT/Hollow block with me on my harness, so I could always lock the CRITR way above the knot, apply the autoblock/3rd hand, and then continue as described in the diagram.

[mzamp]

Removing the upper device is difficult to impossible, as there is tension running through it.

Agree - I wasn't visualizing it accurately. I was thinking once you disconnect the tension is off device #1, but that is not the case.

[mzamp]

I usually don't use autoblock while rappeling...this is why I asked the question :). I do have VT/Hollow block with me on my harness, so I could always lock the CRITR way above the knot, apply the autoblock/3rd hand, and then continue as described in the diagram.

If you know ahead of time that you have to pass a knot, then you can make an exception about using a autoblock.

[nkanarik]

If you know ahead of time that you have to pass a knot, then you can make an exception about using a autoblock.

Agree! BTW...I use (Prusik/Tibloc) MMO rather than a Klemheist or Bachmann Hitch

[nkanarik]

"This is my life you are talking about"

Try this:

1. when setting up your rappel, use a mariner's knot to extend your first rappel device.

2. rappel down until the first rappel device jams against the knot.

3. attach lower rappel device below the knot. Lock off.

4. release mariner knot.

5. Unlock lower rap device and rappel to the ground.

I re-read this, and I see the "use a mariner's knot to extend your first rappel device" as an equivalent to me using an Autoblock when setting up the rappel, which will eliminate the need to "lock off the CRITR" and avoid the extra length of rope I mentioned.

So...my process is:

1. Set up an Autoblock (I use BlueWater-VT / Sterling HollowBlock) prior to rappeling below the rappel device (to the harness' belay loop)
   
   1. If encountering an unpredictable knot...I can always stop mid rappel, lock off CRITR, set up Autoblock, and continue rappelling until the knot
   
   
2. Rappel until I'm ~6" above knot, and lock off the rappel using Autoblock
3. Set up Chicken-loop contingency with the dangling rope below
4. Set up PMMO few inches above rappel device (the shorter the PMMO the better) and keep the tension as much as possible
5. Transition weight into PMMO
6. Undo Autoblock
7. Disconnect CRITR, connect below the knot, and lock it off
8. Disconnect Chicken-loop
9. Undo PMMO and transition weight to CRITR
10. Remove PMMO
11. Unlock CRITR and enjoy the rest of rappel

Gear used (Total of 4 carabiners were used):

1. 1 x CRITR rappel device + carabiner
2. 1 x VT/Hollowblock + carabiner
3. 1 x carabiner for the chicken loop
4. 1 x 20' 6-7mm cordelette + carabiner for PMMO (20' is not a must, but this is what I carry; optional: Use Tibloc+carabiner instead of setting up a prusik with the cordelette)

This process is easy enough in my mind, where the only "complication" is that I have to use the autoblock up front, vs. my usual rappel setting...not a big deal :)...I consider the other options proposed same complexity as mine.


Thank you all!!!

Hank - Let me know if you see other room for improvement :)
Tom - Thanks for sharing your method!

[hank moon]

Gear used (Total of 4 carabiners were used):

1. 1 x CRITR rappel device + carabiner
2. 1 x VT/Hollowblock + carabiner
3. 1 x carabiner for the chicken loop
4. 1 x 20' 6-7mm cordelette + carabiner for PMMO (20' is not a must, but this is what I carry; optional: Use Tibloc+carabiner instead of setting up a prusik with the cordelette)

Note that Todd's method uses less gear and less steps.

Also, the Sterling Hollow Block has issues. See here for more on that.

[ratagonia]

I re-read this, and I see the "use a mariner's knot to extend your first rappel device" as an equivalent to me using an Autoblock when setting up the rappel, which will eliminate the need to "lock off the CRITR" and avoid the extra length of rope I mentioned.

So...my process is:

1. Set up an Autoblock (I use BlueWater-VT / Sterling HollowBlock) prior to rappeling below the rappel device (to the harness' belay loop)
   
   1. If encountering an unpredictable knot...I can always stop mid rappel, lock off CRITR, set up Autoblock, and continue rappelling until the knot
   
   
2. Rappel until I'm ~6" above knot, and lock off the rappel using Autoblock
3. Set up Chicken-loop contingency with the dangling rope below
4. Set up PMMO few inches above rappel device (the shorter the PMMO the better) and keep the tension as much as possible
5. Transition weight into PMMO
6. Undo Autoblock
7. Disconnect CRITR, connect below the knot, and lock it off
8. Disconnect Chicken-loop
9. Undo PMMO and transition weight to CRITR
10. Remove PMMO
11. Unlock CRITR and enjoy the rest of rappel

Gear used (Total of 4 carabiners were used):

1. 1 x CRITR rappel device + carabiner
2. 1 x VT/Hollowblock + carabiner
3. 1 x carabiner for the chicken loop
4. 1 x 20' 6-7mm cordelette + carabiner for PMMO (20' is not a must, but this is what I carry; optional: Use Tibloc+carabiner instead of setting up a prusik with the cordelette)

This process is easy enough in my mind, where the only "complication" is that I have to use the autoblock up front, vs. my usual rappel setting...not a big deal :)...I consider the other options proposed same complexity as mine.


Thank you all!!!

Hank - Let me know if you see other room for improvement :)
Tom - Thanks for sharing your method!

Afternoon low blood sugar prevents a thorough analysis, but it really seems like you are making it way to complicated. I suggest TRYING the sequence I suggested physically, and seeing if you like it. I know it is more fun to make up your own sequences, and I respect that, but...

Tom

[nkanarik]

Note that Todd's method uses less gear and less steps.

Also, the Sterling Hollow Block has issues. See here for more on that.

Not sure how...let me explain why
Todd's procedure:
"

1. Tie the VT in place of the "PMMO" and tension it --> VT replaces my cordelette
2. Transfer the CRITR to just below the knot and lock it off. --> Huh...this is where I think there's a problem...in order to do what's described here...
   
   1. the CRITR must have been locked off (which creates the long rope problem I mentioned) and I guess I end up "carefully bumping" the VT prusik for ~6' ...OR...
   2. In my mind...you need to get to a stop closer to the knot...that stop is achieved by an autoblock (added piece of HW). I simply don't see how you can get to a stop with step1 above close to the knot
   
   
3. Carefully "bump" or caress the top of the loaded VT until it slides down towards the knot, loading the CRITR.
4. ...

​"
BTW...it might seems like I have more steps, but this is because I broke down the process more than others did (included all steps that others might omitted since they might be obvious :))...I think I have ~same #of steps as others.


Anyhow...I'm planning on trying it all later tomorrow/weekend as mentioned before

Thanks

[oldno7]

I don't think you guys understand how a VT system works.

Heres an animated version:http://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/valdotain-tresse/

If you use a Bluewater VT prusik, it has a technora sheath, it doesn't heat up or melt when it slides over rope.

So in using the system, you must stop far enough above a knot to tie of your rappel device.

Tie the VT prusik onto your rope using the valdotain tresse system I linked to, weight the VT system by sliding it up the rope.

Un lock your rappel device and re install it below knot.

grab the top of your VT and slowly pull it down, sliding down the rope, until you weight the rappel device, lock off device.

Remove VT system, un lock device, rappel.

It can be done in less time than it took me to type this and your only additional piece of equipment is the

Bluewater VT prusik. Distance sliding down rope with VT system should be 12"-18".

Practice using the VT system a couple feet off the ground until you're proficient.(for obvious reasons)

[oldno7]

As a qualifier--I was once certified as a instructor and a guide by an organization that didn't exist.........

[harness man]

Thanks oldno7 for coherent explainin'
I am a bit clumsy on rope (torn rotator cuff) but will pull out the go pro and shoot it this weekend.
Hanging 20' from our scissor lift, it took less than a minute (while on rappel) to tie on the VT (it is placed ABOVE the CRITR)
rappel to within about 2 feet of the knot, let the VT lock (by letting go of it),
remove the CRITR then put it back on rope right below the knot (then lock it off!)
bump the VT down the rope until my weight is back on the CRITR.
Remove the VT, unlock the CRITR and rappel.
Definitely less time than it took to type this...

[deagol]

I don't think you guys understand how a VT system works.

.... and your only additional piece of equipment is the

Bluewater VT prusik. ..

Thanks for the explanation. Can you clarify one point, though?

When you hook up the VT prussic, don't you have to put it on it's own carabiner that you then connect to the belay loop?

Thanks

[oldno7]

Thanks for the explanation. Can you clarify one point, though?

When you hook up the VT prussic, don't you have to put it on it's own carabiner that you then connect to the belay loop?

Thanks

I use a Short tether.

And yes, I prefer my tether connected to the belay loop.

[harness man]

I use a climbers spectra daisy chain cause I like to be able to get the position of the VT at the perfect height
(within easy arms reach when loaded).
Also important to have the length correct when using as a tether to a device (petzl basic) for climbing the rope.
I choke the daisy chain to the harness to the side of the belay loop to try to get a little separation from the CRITR.

[Mountaineer]

I use a Short tether.

And yes, I prefer my tether connected to the belay loop.

VT, spot on.

With a tether, or... Purcell. Gives you a little more extension just in case. If you have one handy.

[harness man]

Mountaineer-
I have no experience with the Purcell, but see that it has lots of functionality and will absorb shock better than most tethers.
How do you find it for crawling through the canyons hanging from your harness.-
does is snag on debris any different from other web gear?

[darhawk]

I practiced this in my yard today and it looked like this after I moved the CRITR below the knot and was pulling the VT down to weight the CRITR. I thought this was pretty straightforward. In this session, I used a short sewn prussik that was girth hitched around my belay loop to extend the VT. I also tried my purcell prussik but found it was a bit too long even at its shortest extension (yeah, I could retie it). A daisy chain sounds like a nice solution too, to extend the VT.

Hmmm. OK. I give up. No matter how I rotate the photo on my computer it posts here sideways. Sorry.

[darhawk]

Mountaineer-
I have no experience with the Purcell, but see that it has lots of functionality and will absorb shock better than most tethers.
How do you find it for crawling through the canyons hanging from your harness.-
does is snag on debris any different from other web gear?

I use a purcell, tied using Bluugnome's very helpful instructions. It does snag some, but not too badly. Mine is 18 inches at its shortest and I girth hitch it around the loops at the front and then biner it to a gear loop on the back of the harness.