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Thread: Passing a knot

  1. #1

    Passing a knot

    Here's another (advanced?) technical question...
    When practicing "Passing a Knot" with my new CRITR device, I encountered a problem I won't have if I were to use a "third hand" as describe in attached image.

    The problem I encountered is that the amount of rope needed to lock off the CRITR is quite substantial, so when I finally offload the PMMO and transition the weight to the re-positioned locked rappel device below the knot, I end up with the prusik ~6' above me (in my case I used Tibloc instead of prusik, so after doing some cordlette shaking, I was able to retrieve it).

    Normally, I won't use a third hand, so was wondering if anyone has a better way to do it (with minimal gear).
    The image below is not 1:1 when compared to the process I used, but close enough for this particular problem (the main delta as mentioned above is that I use the CRITR w/o third hand).

    Feedback is appreciated
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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  4. #2
    I've got that book somewhere. Forgot all about it. It sure has some cool stuff in it. No suggestion sorry.:(

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  6. #3
    Hi Nkanarik
    Passing a knot is made very easy with the use of a VT Prussic (and the CRITR!)
    Tie the VT in place of the "PMMO" and tension it
    Transfer the CRITR to just below the knot and lock it off.
    Carefully "bump" or caress the top of the loaded VT until it slides down towards the knot, loading the CRITR.
    Remove the VT and rappel (or transfer the VT below the knot if you want it as a back up while you rappel)
    With the VT I no longer carry any prussic sling.
    A CRITR, a thin spectra double runner, a VT prussick, 5 locking biners, a petzl micro traxtion and petzl basic (or tiblock) and you are
    ready for almost anything.

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  8. #4
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Gosh darn! Climbers do make things complicated!!!


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  10. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    Gosh darn! Climbers do make things complicated!!!

    I was wondering if I was the only one who was thinking that.

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  12. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    I was wondering if I was the only one who was thinking that.
    I agree the picture/process seems complicated, but hey...this is my life we're talking about ...Do you guys have a simpler way?

    Harness Man: Regarding your "Tie the VT in place of the "PMMO" and tension it statement"... I can try it, but I'm not sure how it solves the problem.
    The CRITR will be locked off (with significant amount of rope) prior to tying in the VT/PMMO, so the way I see it, I'll end up with the VT prusik far above me or not able to transition the load from the VT to CRITR since the VT might be too short.

    Anyhow...will try later this week and get back with results

  13. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by harness man View Post
    ...
    Passing a knot is made very easy with the use of a VT Prussic (and the CRITR!)
    Tie the VT in place of the "PMMO" and tension it
    Transfer the CRITR to just below the knot and lock it off.
    Carefully "bump" or caress the top of the loaded VT until it slides down towards the knot, loading the CRITR.
    Remove the VT and rappel (or transfer the VT below the knot if you want it as a back up while you rappel)
    With the VT I no longer carry any prussic sling.
    A CRITR, a thin spectra double runner, a VT prussick, 5 locking biners, a petzl micro traxtion and petzl basic (or tiblock) and you are
    ready for almost anything.
    can you post a picture of the CRITR rigged along with the VT Prusik?

    I was wondering where the eyelets of the VT connect in relation to the CRITR: the VT is on a separate biner attached to the belay loop, right? Just wondering if the VT interferes with the CRITR....

    Thanks..

    edit, my belay loop can get pretty hard to insert a second biner into when weighted. need to practice once I get my VT

  14. #8
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nkanarik View Post
    I agree the picture/process seems complicated, but hey...this is my life we're talking about ...Do you guys have a simpler way?

    Harness Man: Regarding your "Tie the VT in place of the "PMMO" and tension it statement"... I can try it, but I'm not sure how it solves the problem.
    The CRITR will be locked off (with significant amount of rope) prior to tying in the VT/PMMO, so the way I see it, I'll end up with the VT prusik far above me or not able to transition the load from the VT to CRITR since the VT might be too short.

    Anyhow...will try later this week and get back with results
    "This is my life you are talking about"

    All the more reason to make your system simple and efficient.

    Try this:

    1. when setting up your rappel, use a mariner's knot to extend your first rappel device.

    2. rappel down until the first rappel device jams against the knot.

    3. attach lower rappel device below the knot. Lock off.

    4. release mariner knot.

    5. Unlock lower rap device and rappel to the ground.


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  16. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    "This is my life you are talking about"

    All the more reason to make your system simple and efficient.

    Try this:

    1. when setting up your rappel, use a mariner's knot to extend your first rappel device.

    2. rappel down until the first rappel device jams against the knot.

    3. attach lower rappel device below the knot. Lock off.

    4. release mariner knot.

    5. Unlock lower rap device and rappel to the ground.

    Sounds like a good/simple process...was thinking about it before and was wondering if I can use the knot "to lock" the rappel device.
    Will try later this week

  17. #10
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nkanarik View Post
    Sounds like a good/simple process...was thinking about it before and was wondering if I can use the knot "to lock" the rappel device.
    Will try later this week
    You might need to enlarge the knot, if using a Pirana or Figure 8 type device.

    Tom

  18. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    You might need to enlarge the knot, if using a Pirana or Figure 8 type device.

    Tom
    Got it! Thanks

  19. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by nkanarik View Post
    The problem I encountered is that the amount of rope needed to lock off the CRITR is quite substantial, so when I finally offload the PMMO and transition the weight to the re-positioned locked rappel device below the knot, I end up with the prusik ~6' above me (in my case I used Tibloc instead of prusik, so after doing some cordlette shaking, I was able to retrieve it).
    Your problem as presented makes no sense to me; please explain how any amount of tie-off rope used below the CRITR has any influence on the length of the rope segment between CRITR and PMMO.

  20. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    "This is my life you are talking about"

    All the more reason to make your system simple and efficient.

    Try this:

    1. when setting up your rappel, use a mariner's knot to extend your first rappel device.

    2. rappel down until the first rappel device jams against the knot.

    3. attach lower rappel device below the knot. Lock off.

    4. release mariner knot.

    5. Unlock lower rap device and rappel to the ground.

    Sounds like 2 rap devices are in play here, with one left behind on rope above the knot. Not sure that meets the stringent "minimal gear" standards of Mr. (?) Nkanarik :-)

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  22. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Sounds like 2 rap devices are in play here, with one left behind on rope above the knot. Not sure that meets the stringent "minimal gear" standards of Mr. Nkanarik :-)
    Agree on 2 devices, but you should not have to leave the first behind if you remove it after undoing the mariner knot and prior to unlocking device #2.

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  24. #15
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzamp View Post
    Agree on 2 devices, but you should not have to leave the first behind if you remove it after undoing the mariner knot and prior to unlocking device #2.
    Removing the upper device is difficult to impossible, as there is tension running through it.

    For a second device, one can always use a Munter. Not advised for the first device.

    I don't think that using one carabiner (for a Munter) would disqualify this solution from "minimal gear". Also, note that this solution really does use minimal gear, if you take a count. But, the Original Poster is the ref on this.

    Tom

  25. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Your problem as presented makes no sense to me; please explain how any amount of tie-off rope used below the CRITR has any influence on the length of the rope segment between CRITR and PMMO.
    Prior to arriving the knot in the rope I need to stop so I can bypass the knot. The figure I attached doesn't lock the rappel device and uses 3rd hand to get to a complete stop before the knot. Since I'm not using a third hand, I had to lock my CRITR device above the knot (prior to setting the PMMO)...locking off the CRITR above the knot creates a ~6' separation from the point in the rope in which I started the locking off to the knot itself. I hope this makes sense...I'll try the other options later this week...I hope that after practicing the various options, the optimal solution will jump at me

  26. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by nkanarik View Post
    Prior to arriving the knot in the rope I need to stop so I can bypass the knot. The figure I attached doesn't lock the rappel device and uses 3rd hand to get to a complete stop before the knot. Since I'm not using a third hand, I had to lock my CRITR device above the knot (prior to setting the PMMO)...locking off the CRITR above the knot creates a ~6' separation from the point in the rope in which I started the locking off to the knot itself. I hope this makes sense...I'll try the other options later this week...I hope that after practicing the various options, the optimal solution will jump at me
    So the question is, how can you begin the load transfer process ("...when I finally offload the PMMO...") with a much shorter rope segment between the knot and the PMMO ?

  27. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    So the question is, how can you begin the load transfer process ("...when I finally offload the PMMO...") with a much shorter rope segment between the knot and the PMMO ?
    Correct.

  28. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by nkanarik View Post
    Correct.
    Well there you go then. Most times, finding the correct question is tantamount to finding the answer. Just a slight shade of separation in this case. I'm confident you will succeed as this one is a bit easier than the recent MT problem.

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  30. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by hank moon View Post
    Well there you go then. Most times, finding the correct question is tantamount to finding the answer. Just a slight shade of separation in this case. I'm confident you will succeed as this one is a bit easier than the recent MT problem.
    I have some ideas...will try later this week/weekend.

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