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Thread: Contingency Anchors!
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02-11-2015, 11:46 AM #41
Appreciate those with experience willing to revisit these topics.
I may think SRT is the only way to get thru IMLAY but some will fly thru there all double strand, without even a rope bag, and leave my team in the dirt!
More than anything like to now HOW they do it!
Easy to assume there is only one good way.
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02-11-2015 11:46 AM # ADS
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02-11-2015, 12:07 PM #42
I don't know why those links are no longer active. Below are new links to a couple of the stories. I also noticed someone had removed the original "I fell 106 Feet" post. I have replaced it with a different version along with an edit note.
I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?33314
Heaps Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?26059
Englestead Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?35747
I'll have to Bogley tech's look into why the old links no longer work.
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02-11-2015, 12:22 PM #43
So exactly how many people have to die because of the promotion of overly complicated and silly-ass rope tricks before my post would be considered acceptable? Just give me a number, because if this shit continues more will die or be seriously injured.
I understand all these techniques have a use and a place, but 99% of your recreational canyoneers will never have a need or use for any of them. But the rec canyoneers see the big dogs and a Zion guide promoting them and think that must be the correct way, and we already know how well that works out in the end.
If you wish to champion overly complicated and silly-ass rope tricks that's cool, but shoulder some responsibility for the final results.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 LikesSlot Machine liked this post
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02-11-2015, 12:47 PM #44
You should know both before entering a canyon unsupervised.
If it isn't necessary to use a contingency anchor rap double, but if you can't see if your rope is touching and you go down on double you're a moron and shouldn't be in a canyon in the first place.The stupid Dutchman
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02-11-2015, 12:49 PM #45
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02-11-2015, 12:55 PM #46
You calling me a moron? I usually match ends or place the middle mark at the anchor, toss the rope ends down, and, rarely see both ends on the ground before I start rappelling.
Now, I pay attention to both ends as I rappel. Chances are, they're on a ledge or hung up midway. So, I stop and pick them up and re-toss. And, if for any reason, they aren't equal, I can equalize them, or, at least stop on rappel if need be.
There are GOBS of rappels where you can't see the bottom over a pourover, or, after a long ramp, etc. So, its not really practical to expect to always see the rope ends on the ground at the bottom of the rappel.
I don't think that makes me a moron. Or anyone else either.
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02-11-2015, 01:12 PM #47
All but one have to deal with teaching noobs how to rappel. Not in a slot canyon. Had a few get their hair stuck, and one got their glove stuck.
One rescue was when a buddy went down the large rappel (DRT) in Upper Imlay, and bypassed a two rappel stations. he had the rope and skills to self rescue, but we opted as a group to convert to a lower and get him down that way.CanyoneeringUtah.blogspot.com
My YouTube Channel
"As you journey through life, choose your destination well, but do not hurry there. You will arrive soon enough. Wander the back roads and forgotten path[s] ... Such things are riches for the soul. And if upon arrival, you find that your destination is not exactly as you had dreamed, ... know that the true worth of your travels lies not in where you come to be at journey
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02-11-2015, 01:50 PM #48THE MOST TALKED ABOUT CANYONEERING TRIP OF 2017 - WEST CANYON VIA HELICOPTER.
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02-11-2015, 03:33 PM #49
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02-11-2015, 04:50 PM #50
Rope tricks don't kill people, people kill people. Seriously. It's not the rope's fault, it's the person hanging from it.
Any way you cut it, rappelling through canyons is a rope trick, and a dangerous one. I rig 90% of my rappels in a straightforward and familiar manner, but having the experience, thoughtfulness and adaptability to recognize and safely complete the other 10% of rappels is the hard part... and it certainly isn't simple.
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Post Thanks / Like - 3 Likes
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02-12-2015, 02:29 PM #51
Here are some basic safety practices that Desi and I use to offset the hazards inherent in all rappelling systems:
1) At the beginning of each rappel connect to the anchor near the rapide with a DAISY that has enough reach.
Connect your rappel device to the rope close to the rapide and FULLY WEIGHT IT.
Double check the device, feed a few inches of rope, have your partner (if present) double check also.
Remove your daisy and rappel.
If everyone weighted their device before unclipping this would prevent a lot of accidents. not always possible depending on the anchor set-up, but certainly easy with most Zion moderates.
2). If using SRT, with or without a contingency, always safety the pull-end with a figure 8 knot clipped back to the anchor. Lapar removes it AFTER riggng their rappel and weighting their device FIRST (to check the block).
3) If you are new to SRT have Lapar toss the pull line before starting.
On the ground, take BOTH the rap line and the pull line with just a little slack and anchor them to your harness, and firemans belay.
If there is a block failure, this could save Lapar's life.
I think following these basic procedures (when practical) would have prevented many accidents, regardless of technique.
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02-12-2015, 07:56 PM #52
Driving a car is dangerous... but there is a reason most of us don't drive drunk, at night, in a snowstorm, while talking on a cell phone... it's always nice to stack the odds in your favor.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesharness man liked this post
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02-13-2015, 08:52 AM #53
Iceaxe-
I think we are in complete agreement that in canyoneering (and rock climbing, mountaineering, etc)
COMPLEXITY can be a killer.
So "keeping it simple" is a fundamental principle that keeps you alive for beginners and experts alike especially when one is
cold, tired, hungry, sleep-deprived, freaked out, etc.
So I think the principle (KISS) is universal- the debate for me is about what are the best practices to keep it simple.
You make a good argument for sticking with DRT in easy to moderate canyons, and for beginners.
As a noob canyoneer, but very experienced climber (40 plus years including 7 as a guide and volunteer rescue) I have REALLY enjoyed learning to canyoneer with Desiree. Some of the best times of our lives so far!
But I have noticed that "basic" canyon skills are not enough preparation for full Imlay, Heaps, etc due to "big wall" style station to station raps, potential pothole escapes, rigging guided rappels, raps and lowers, etc. and THE ABILITY TO DO THESE IN YOUR SLEEP.
Way to many inexperienced people go gunning for the advanced canyons with a very low skill set.Last edited by harness man; 02-13-2015 at 09:05 AM. Reason: oops!
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02-13-2015, 09:10 AM #54
Heaps was my second technical canyon (after the Left Fork of North Creek in '86 or so). But...we were both fairly experienced climbers with wall experience, etc. We didn't find it that difficult. We blocked that last rappel because it made sense given the ropes we were carrying (300' plus two 50m ropes). Every thing else we DRT'd.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 Likesharness man liked this post
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02-13-2015, 09:47 AM #55
Brian
Climbers with wall experience = VERY experienced climbers I think .
And very helpful on the Heaps exit, unless one WANTS to have their brain melt.
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Post Thanks / Like - 1 LikesBrian in SLC liked this post
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