Contingency Anchors!

[ratagonia]

If the patient is weighting both ropes, and the rope is just fed through a quicklink at the top (No alternate anchor used), how would you convert to a lower without a second rope?

Why would you EVER put yourself in this situation? Oh right, you were canyoneering with Shane and Slot Machine. You already frakked up.

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Fortune cookie say:

If you might need 2 ropes, then bring two ropes.

Now it's time for a fun video of a frack-up practicing rope tricks that he never uses:

[Absolute Gravity]

I'm hoping the rope tricks in the 'often used' bag excite Steph more than this one. No video evidence required, I'd take your word for it.

[hank moon]

Ratagonia should certainly remember the Heaps death, that's the accident where he left the beginners to fend for themselves so he could make the Pizza noodle before closing.

Shane, you know I love you, but this is the ugliest forum post I've ever seen in the canyon community.

Beyond the pale.

hank

[mzamp]

I still believe the best canyoneering skill is the un-noticed pick-off. That's the one where you clear the sand and dirt from your nose without your friends noticing.

[flatiron]

I can't open any of Shane's links? Is it me? (probably)

[Skeeter]

Shane, you know I love you, but this is the ugliest forum post I've ever seen in the canyon community.

Beyond the pale.

hank

Agreed! This thread is wasted.

[harness man]

Sigh....
In the (perhaps) vain hope of moving in a positive direction...
Kurly_Q:
If you have only one rope and you have tossed both ends and are rappelling double strand then there is NO conversion to anything.
That is the point.
There is a (slim) chance you could tie on to the dual ropes with a VT prussic and (if you could get past any lip) get down the rope to the victim.
Once at the victim you STILL have an extremely difficult problem of what to do with them.
Given this scenario you would have been MUCH better off rappelling single line with the rope set with a figure 8 contingency or munter contingency.
And then you would STILL have had the free end (pull side) of the rope to rap down (instead of lowering the victim) if you chose to.
If you are going to rappel double strand you need an extra rope for emergencies, otherwise options are pretty poor.
Not impossible, but poor.
rappelling double strand with only one rope is pretty common for newbie climber-type canyoneers (we resembled that!).
But without more resources (rope!) it could be a formula for trouble.

[Slot Machine]

In the (perhaps) vain hope of moving in a positive direction...

Going down the rabbit hole of improbable hypothetical scenarios is not a positive direction.

Most rappels are double. Tens of thousands of rappels a year. Yet you never hear of anyone in this situation. Strange, isn't it?

Honest question- does anyone have even one report of a patient getting stuck on double rappel in this fashion? No second rope. Unable to rescue themselves. ANYONE??





I vomited a little when I used the word patient. Ugh.

[Kuya]

Going down the rabbit hole of improbable hypothetical scenarios is not a positive direction.

Most rappels are double. Tens of thousands of rappels a year. Yet you never hear of anyone in this situation. Strange, isn't it?

Honest question- does anyone have even one report of a patient getting stuck on double rappel in this fashion? No second rope. Unable to rescue themselves. ANYONE??





I vomited a little when I used the word patient. Ugh.

Ive had to do 4 rescues. Three of which were people on double strand rappel, and for two of those I had to do some kind of hero rescue. The third we did a conversion to a lower with a 3rd rope.The fourth was a easy fix because we had rigged the drop with a contingency.

[oldno7]

I've posted on here before about the young gal stuck on rappel on the last rap in Pine Cr., yea--double strand....

Don't know if the stuck girls party was capable or prepared to rescue her but they didn't seem to mind when Andy and I

stepped in and helped get her safely un stuck.

Or how bout the guy in a California canyon, behind us who tried a double strand rappel, he apparently threw down his first strand

thinking it hit bottom, then he tossed his bag and heard it hit. When this canyoneer got on rope and 40' from the bottom, he realized

his first strand of his double strand rappel was 30' short..(think that one through) We heard the screams for help and did....

[deagol]

there was also an experienced canyoneer somewhere in Utah who died doing double strand rap where one end was short. Was posted on here a couple years ago.

[Bo_Beck]

Not to bash, discredit or suggest merits of any rigging, but having been involved pretty extensively in "rescue" (recovery) scenarios (mostly all in Zion) over the past 19 years, I would suggest that most to my memory were as a result of single rope rappels. Contingincy anchor systems wouldn't have made a difference unless it was rigged as a top belay. As much as the previous post was very distasteful (won't mention which), I will agree with that persons philosophy about "Kiss". I've been along with folks that have rigged SRT systems, after a long, strenuous day, and sure enough mistakes were caught fortunately before the descent began. That being said, I have no problem with DRT, SRT or contingincies, but feel that simplicity to any system is key.

[oldno7]

I believe both SRT and DRT have a place.
The key to either is having enough familiarity that problems can be addressed.
Hoping nothing will happen, as well as a track record of nothing happening, is no guarantee
that nothing ever will!
Having enough experience to deal with problems is a great way to not become headline news.
Ignoring potential problems with either technique, will gain you notoriety.

[harness man]

Slot machine-
agreed that double strand rappels are simpler to set up, automatically afford a higher level of friction, are what ATC type devices are designed for, and are what most people (climber types especially) are used to.
But is it fair to say, that without an extra rope at the top of the drop, rescue options for a stuck (conscious or not) rappellor are limited?

[Bo_Beck]

Or how bout the guy in a California canyon, behind us who tried a double strand rappel, he apparently threw down his first strand thinking it hit bottom, then he tossed his bag and heard it hit. When this canyoneer got on rope and 40' from the bottom, he realized
his first strand of his double strand rappel was 30' short..(think that one through) We heard the screams for help and did....

Dang Kurt! Don't you watch the videos? Remember the fellow in Pine Creek at the last rappel? They had a 170' rope? so he came down last with one end of the rope 30' above the bottom, but, but he thought it out really well! He just twisted the ropes around each other numerous times before descending, and when the end of the rope that was 30' up passed through his devise the untwisting action of the ropes would provide enough friction to gently lower him the remainder 30' on the single strand! NOT! :-)

[oldno7]

Dang Kurt! Don't you watch the videos? Remember the fellow in Pine Creek at the last rappel? They had a 170' rope? so he came down last with one end of the rope 30' above the bottom, but, but he thought it out really well! He just twisted the ropes around each other numerous times before descending, and when the end of the rope that was 30' up passed through his devise the untwisting action of the ropes would provide enough friction to gently lower him the remainder 30' on the single strand! NOT! :-)

Well--I guess a bad plan is better than no plan

[deagol]

I believe both SRT and DRT have a place....

+1 to this

[oldno7]

Kindergarten is simple--college a bit more difficult,
How many ceo's use only kindergarten credentials to move up in the world?

How many here only have a kindergarten diploma---no, never mind, don't want to out anyone

education is for schmucks who are not born with incredible intelligence.

Double strand only, baby, it's what the big kids do....

[Slot Machine]

Ive had to do 4 rescues. Three of which were people on double strand rappel, and for two of those I had to do some kind of hero rescue. The third we did a conversion to a lower with a 3rd rope.The fourth was a easy fix because we had rigged the drop with a contingency.

I would like to hear more about the first three rescues. (not being snarky at all)

Not to bash, discredit or suggest merits of any rigging... but feel that simplicity to any system is key.

Best post of this thread, no question. Thanks Bo.

Slot machine-
agreed that double strand rappels are simpler to set up, automatically afford a higher level of friction, are what ATC type devices are designed for, and are what most people (climber types especially) are used to.
But is it fair to say, that without an extra rope at the top of the drop, rescue options for a stuck (conscious or not) rappellor are limited?

Yes, absolutely fair to say.

Perhaps the exercise should be, "how do you prevent this problem", rather than, "how do you deal with this problem".

This stuff doesn't happen to us because we prevent it. Or or because we are super lucky. Or because we are very clever. Or perhaps all three.