Need help deciding on a descender

[ratagonia]

A Tom paraphrase-ism: "EVERY canyoneer should be able to adjust friction as needed to safely descend ANY diameter of rope."

Not picking a fight or anything, but I'm a little bit surprised at the 9.2 recommendation.

Big men should adjust to skinny ropes and not ask little folks to adjust to a fat ropes. A 200 ft drop for a 100lb person on a 9.2 creates a TON of needless work and wastes much time. There are always options for going slower, but not always options for going faster.

IMO the only time a 9.2 should be used is in rope-eating canyons, and is a great rope for that. Otherwise, the 8.3 Canyon Fire is the way to go.

----

As for ATC's, there is a difference between the ATC-XP and the ATC-XP Guide. For reasons I can't explain, the guide version doesn't hop along the rope as it feeds. It is buttery smooth and worth the extra $10. I'm on my third ATC-XP Guide and I love it. Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC. I've even heard of people using three biners when extra nervous.

Piranas are pretty cool too, but they leave aluminum residue all over everything/everyone. Many folks don't appreciate their ropes and hands turning black. I only use mine in very water intensive canyons, because it is difficult to lose when unclipping.

Putting more weight on the rope puts more cutting power on it where it crosses the edge of the rock. Certainly careful rigging and smooth rappelling make a huge difference in how much you beat up your ropes in use, but a person's skin-in weight makes a big difference too.

Since the individual involved appears to be quite a strong rope-carrier, a larger, heavier, more durable rope is a good choice for him. And yes, his lighter-weight companions should be able to adjust their friction to safely descend any diameter of rope.

"Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC." Hmmm. 'should' is a word of moral force, as in "The United States of America should not torture". I prefer a more nuanced morality than absolute rules, though perhaps I would agree with the statement: "Big Fellas should know how to set up their ATC in many ways, including using two biners under it" and perhaps "people should rappel so they have sufficient control and do not fall to the ground and die".

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...tc-rappelling/

Tom

[hank moon]

A 200 ft drop for a 100lb person on a 9.2 creates a TON of needless work and wastes much time.

Not with the right device, correctly rigged for bodyweight. I can see that with an ATC-XP guide or really, most any fixed-friction device, it could be a problem. :)

[Swift One]

OK. Lots of good intell here. So far, you guys have convinced me to try out the CRITR. That is going to happen. I might also see if my girlfriend wants to go with it also.

Now, this discussion has certainly got me thinking about my rope choice. I come from a world where I am humping 150' of 11mm static line on the hiking trails and cliffs. And my 235lbs is not of the couch potato version. I am what folks would refer to as "Corn Fed Strong", LOL. My main reason for going with the 9.2 is because I have read where the 8.3 get chewed up pretty good in canyons. I have never done canyons in the deserts of the SW, only some falls and cliffs here in southern Indiana, so I really don't know what sharp edges entail. Up here, we have a lot of grass and moss that grows on the cliff edges so we are pretty good. And we also use the fire house sheath technique in rappels where we will be doing it more than one time.

The second reason why I opted for the 9.2 is because I have read in some sites where the 8.3 just doesn't work that well for the heavier guys. Having a better understanding at how these Canyoneering specific descenders operate, I can see how more turns on the horns will create more friction. So, is a guy like me going to fair well with rope smaller than 9mm? Are ropes smaller than 9mm going to get chewed up easier in normal rappelling situations? Do I need to take another look at the 8.3 Canyon Fire Rope?

[Slot Machine]

*all in a friendly tone*

Since the individual involved appears to be quite a strong rope-carrier, a larger, heavier, more durable rope is a good choice for him. And yes, his lighter-weight companions should be able to adjust their friction to safely descend any diameter of rope.

*looks into my crystal ball*

His lighter weight companions will complain. He will eventually gravitate to an 8.3 becuse it is lighter, is very tough, and works great. Even big guys know that it is more fun to carry a lighter rope. Then his 9.2 will sit in the garage and collect dust. Ask @Kuya, who used to weigh 230lbs. Not that he will say anything bad, but I bet that he has a 9.2 that he will sell for cheap.

"Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC." Hmmm. 'should' is a word of moral force, as in "The United States of America should not torture". I prefer a more nuanced morality than absolute rules, though perhaps I would agree with the statement: "Big Fellas should know how to set up their ATC in many ways, including using two biners under it" and perhaps "people should rappel so they have sufficient control and do not fall to the ground and die".

Without question, you are the better technical writer.

Not with the right device, correctly rigged for bodyweight. I can see that with an ATC-XP guide it would be a problem. :)

The 100lb person in question is my wife, who uses a plain-jane slicker-than-snot ATC. I watched her rap down a wet 200 foot 9.2 one time. Naps were taken. Days passed. Seasons changed...

99% of the time the regular old ATC works great for her. 99% of the time we are rapping on 8.0 or 8.3. So, there is about a 99% chance that you won't get her to switch descending devices. And if you think she is going to haul along a BBQ grill... I mean Totem... just in case...

[Kuya]

Ask @Kuya, who used to weigh 230lbs. Not that he will say anything bad, but I bet that he has a 9.2 that he will sell for cheap.

haha!! Woah now, I was only 215 lbs! what is this 230 buisness!? hahaha ;)

For the record. I love 9.2mm rope! :) But I love love my canyon fire ropes! What is the difference you ask? well.... i dislike the color of purple ropes! The canyon fire comes in better colors!

[Slot Machine]

haha!! Woah now, I was only 215 lbs! what is this 230 buisness!? hahaha ;)

*feels bad for one split-second, then says...*

With all the toys on your Swiss-Army harness you were EASILY 265. You are very relevant to this conversation!

[harness man]

Hey SwiftOne!
The CRITR rappel device was built especially to provide plenty of friction for big people on skinny ropes.
Once you figure out the friction settings on the CRITR, controlling your descent on all the small diameter canyon ropes is pretty easy.
The wear and tear on the rope from higher body weight (over edges, etc.) is another matter, as others have discussed here, and depends a LOT on the specific canyons and the experience of the folks in them.
Tom is not just selling rope but providing good counsel (he makes both a 9mm and the 8.3mm)
I think there is a pretty handy and relevant "rope selection guide" on his Imlay website... can you give us a link, Tom?

[deagol]

I should add something to this after reading additional posts RE: fatter rope. I took my sister canyoneering and she only weighs about 95 pounds and used an old Totem and did not seem to have any problems rapping on a 9MM or 9.2 MM. I think my 200' is 9MM and my 120' is 9.2 MM.

[hank moon]

The 100lb person in question is my wife, who uses a plain-jane slicker-than-snot ATC. I watched her rap down a wet 200 foot 9.2 one time. Naps were taken. Days passed. Seasons changed...

Post updated to include plain jane ATC and other fixed friction devices. Point is that the rope is not the problem in the case you described, device choice is (or perhaps more accurately, the combination of rope, device, and bodyweight).

On the plus side of your experience, canyon naps can be very restorative. Heaps crossroads comes to mind as a lovely nap spot on a sunny day...

[hank moon]

I should add something to this after reading additional posts RE: fatter rope. I took my sister canyoneering and she only weighs about 95 pounds and used an old Totem and did not seem to have any problems rapping on a 9MM or 9.2 MM. I think my 200' is 9MM and my 120' is 9.2 MM.

What kind of rope? New or old? Stiff or supple? Wet, dry, dirty, fuzzy, etc.

Many factors have an impact on friction

[ratagonia]

A Tom paraphrase-ism: "EVERY canyoneer should be able to adjust friction as needed to safely descend ANY diameter of rope."

Not picking a fight or anything, but I'm a little bit surprised at the 9.2 recommendation. (I guess if you sell them you get a pass.)

Big men should adjust to skinny ropes and not ask little folks to adjust to a fat ropes. A 200 ft drop for a 100lb person on a 9.2 creates a TON of needless work and wastes much time. There are always options for going slower, but not always options for going faster.

IMO the only time a 9.2 should be used is in rope-eating canyons, and is a great rope for that. Otherwise, the 8.3 Canyon Fire is the way to go.

----

As for ATC's, there is a difference between the ATC-XP and the ATC-XP Guide. For reasons I can't explain, the guide version doesn't hop along the rope as it feeds. It is buttery smooth and worth the extra $10. I'm on my third ATC-XP Guide and I love it. Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC. I've even heard of people using three biners when extra nervous.

Piranas are pretty cool too, but they leave aluminum residue all over everything/everyone. Many folks don't appreciate their ropes and hands turning black. I only use mine in very water intensive canyons, because it is difficult to lose when unclipping.

There are many factors that work into the equation.

A better solution for him might be to use Canyon Fires, and have himself rappel double-strand.

There's more than one way to skin a cat... or as Mr. Cabe would say: "so many cats, so few recipes!"

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Point is that the rope is not the problem in the case you described, device choice is.

The solution to having a too fat girlfriend is:

A. Walk more slowly so that she can catch her breath.
B. Buy her liposuction for Christmas. And Valentine's day.
C. Pray that she suddenly starts eating less.
D. Find a less fat girlfriend.

My way of compensating for a too-fat rope is to not start the day with a too-fat rope. I will actually intervene with people that try to bring fat ropes or climbing ropes in my groups (rope snob, that's me!), and try to switch them out with my own. It is a testament to the superiority of the Canyon Fire (pat yourself on the back Tom, best rope ever, seriously). You buy a fat rope because you are drunk and have self esteem issues and are lonely.

... I mean, you buy a fat rope for canyons that require fat ropes. And on those days you get creative with your choice of descender. Being creative on other days usually means that you are carrying extra weight for no good reason.

But yes, there are many excessively nerdy ways to skin that fat cat.

[hikster11]

My personal preference is the Canyon Fire. When I started canyoneering I thought I want the strongest rope I could get. I got PMI 11 static rope. After a few canyoneering trips with it I did not like it. It was huge, heavy and doubled its weight when wet. I then got a Canyonero 9.2. This is a great rope and very robust but it does not pack down as small as the Canyon Fire. when I have a little pack so my total weight is not over 170 I have a little to much resistance on ATC. I must say that this is a great rope though. I have a 100ft Canyonero that seen close to a 1000 rappels and is in good shape. I also have a Sterling C4 another good rope very soft and robust. It is a little bouncy or stretchy on a 200 ft rappel. It packs up small and doesn't gain much weight when wet. I like the Canyon Fire the best out of any rope I have used. It is small,robust and plenty strong for canyoneering. It packs up the smallest of the ropes I have. I have use for canyoneering an ATC, ATC-XP, ATS, Pirana, and CRITR. I like the CRITR the best.

[Swift One]

OK. So there is a lot of supporters in the Canyon Fore 8.3 crowd- even for guys my weight. Would you say that the Canyon Fire is a rope that can get good life with a lot of use or is it better suited for a lighter use line?

[ratagonia]

OK. So there is a lot of supporters in the Canyon Fore 8.3 crowd- even for guys my weight. Would you say that the Canyon Fire is a rope that can get good life with a lot of use or is it better suited for a lighter use line?

Canyon Fire outsells Canyonero about 2:1.

My theory is that ropes die MOSTLY when we make rigging and/or rappelling mistakes that result is the rope sliding or bouncing across a hard edge and getting a coreshot (damage to the sheath). I am among the many people who took a long time to figure out how not to do this. Once your technique is good, and the technique of all your companions, you are likely to be able to ruin only a rope or two a year.

At a heavier weight, your rope will be less tolerant of imperfect rigging.

If you do go Canyon Fire, please rappel double strand when it makes sense. Unfortunately, it is usually the longer rappels that frak up the rope more, the ones you would be least likely to double strand.

It makes more sense to adjust the rappel device to the rope, than to adjust the rope to the device. Device = 40$. Rope = a whole lot more. So if the problem is that your 100 lb companion is unable to get down the rope with her ATC-XP, the solution is NOT (necessarily) to switch to a smaller rope; a better solution is to have her get a Pirana.

Tom

[oldno7]

Swift One
I would STRONGLY recommend you use a 9.2mm rope to get started. Knowing what device will work for you, is something only you can figure out. There are many devices to use, the key here is finding one that suits YOU. Starting on a skinny rope is fine for skinny boys but I can only strongly advise you, not to. Trying to make an argument on the weight difference of a rope, is ridiculous, in the grand scheme of things it isn't that much. A good group leader would bring along the right rope for the job, not a rope based on a popularity contest. If he deems weight an issue, transfer a water bottle out of rope carriers pack, it's really that easy. Weight of rope is not an issue, safety while on that rope is. No matter how cool one deems himself, cool will get you dead! Friction will get you down safely.
Only those who have no idea how to rig a rope properly for differing weights/heights/diameters of rope, etc, would recommend you start on a 8mm line. I strongly suggest you start with a 9mm and work your way down as your skills and knowledge advance.
don't have your first canyon experience end in a headline---
"He was an experienced outdoorsman" we don't know why he went SPLAT.

[darhawk]

I agree that a 9.2 is best for beginners, not only for yourself but for others you might bring along. More friction aids learning by slowing things down. More friction builds confidence for folks who might be a little worried. Thicker ropes mean that I can pay more attention to the hundreds of other details about rigging and rope placement without being as preoccupied by concerns for appropriate amounts of friction on a rap device. I often bring along newbies. They bring low-friction rappel devices because they are cheaper and more well-known. I OK this choice beforehand because my rope works for anything anyone brings without extra worry on my part. If we are in a bit of a hurry, I don't have to adjust the rope after every rappel because a 9.2 is stronger and more durable, especially my dual sheath. My 9.2 lasts and lasts and lasts and is more forgiving of my mistakes. Do yourself a favor and start with a 9.2 and enjoy learning about the many other aspects of rappelling and canyoneering without as many concerns for babying your rope or rope-rappel device interaction..

[Slot Machine]

OK. So there is a lot of supporters in the Canyon Fore 8.3 crowd- even for guys my weight. Would you say that the Canyon Fire is a rope that can get good life with a lot of use or is it better suited for a lighter use line?

You'll get a good long life out of a Canyon Fire unless you do something careless with it. Most of the wear spots on my CF ropes come from pulling down biner blocks (where a knot drags along the stone), not from sharp edges or corn-fed canyoneer issues. I've had to trim the ends off a couple of them, but never had one 'die', where there is a coreshot in the middle of the length.

They aren't as tough as PMI ropes, but certainly tough enough for most canyons.

cool will get you dead!

Correction: Misusing any equipment you buy could 'get you dead'. No matter which rope/device you choose, consider getting some training from an experienced canyoneer. You can learn more in an hour with an instructor than you can in a year on your own. I'm no instructor, but I've shown lots of folks how to rap on an 8.3 safely. Not a big deal.

Back the your original post... You're planning on doing Coyote Gulch. You don't need a special rope for that canyon. Are you planning on doing some other canyons down there?

[oldno7]

as an aside--If skinnier/lighter people don't know how to smoothly go down a 9mm rope,what makes them think they have any more talent than a heavier person not finding enough friction on a skinny rope?
A prudent new guy to canyoneering, would error on the side of caution, rather than error on the side of SPLAT!!

Falling to peer pressure and bad advice, is still FALLING!

[Slot Machine]

as an aside--If skinnier/lighter people don't know how to smoothly go down a 9mm rope,what makes them think they have any more talent than a heavier person not finding enough friction on a skinny rope?

Nothing should make them think they have more talent. Rappelling is 0% talent and 100% knowledge. Once you learn how to safely rap a skinny rope, you're set. Invest in some training. Don't try to compensate for lack of knowledge with a fat rope.