Need help deciding on a descender

[oldno7]

The 100lb person in question is my wife, who uses a plain-jane slicker-than-snot ATC. I watched her rap down a wet 200 foot 9.2 one time. Naps were taken. Days passed. Seasons changed...

Sounds like she needs experience with a descender that is suited for her. Having too much friction can be as dangerous as too little.
Not knowing how to adjust friction up or down, with ones descender, is a lack of "good" training.
Having enough ego to suggest all should rap on one size rope with one style descender is self serving and a disservice to those inquiring where to get started in the sport.
Spending a day on a wall with many descenders and picking one that actually works for you, would seem like a good idea for a beginner. I have a couple dozen of every variety if someone in the Southern Utah area want's to try something out.
I apologize, in advance for speaking rationally.

Experience doesn't come from dying!

[Slot Machine]

As an aside, I'm pretty sure ladies should be discussing weather or not an extra 0.9mm really makes a difference. I think they would also argue that it's more about technique...

[Slot Machine]

Sounds like she needs experience with a descender that is suited for her. Having too much friction can be as dangerous as too little.
Not knowing how to adjust friction up or down, with ones descender, is a lack of "good" training.

She doesn't jump down the well of canyoneering gadgetry (the exclusive territory of dudes that don't get laid that much). She could give a rats ass about any new toys that come out. The ATC works great for her 99% of the time. She suffers the other 1% of the time. To suffer that 1% of the time is a combination of personal preference and apathy, not a lack of training or ability.

Having enough ego to suggest all should rap on one size rope with one style descender is self serving and a disservice to those inquiring where to get started in the sport.

This thread has nothing to do with ego, or being cool. (I'll try to be cool on some other thread)

I've tried lots of ropes and some are simply better than the others. Like hikester11, I have an 11mm PMI that I never use and regret buying. Note that I'm not screaming about how great the 8.0 is (and it IS great). That rope can be scary when new. I don't feel like the 8.3 is scary. Likewise, the Sterling CIV is not scary, and also superior to the 9.2.

Spending a day on a wall with many descenders and picking one that actually works for you, would seem like a good idea for a beginner. I have a couple dozen of every variety if someone in the Southern Utah area want's to try something out.

^^This^^ is a great idea.

You say you have a couple dozen descenders?? The chicks must dig that.

[Skeeter]

I own both ropes, canyonfire and canyonero. My weight without gear is about 165. I originally bought the canyonero thinking I would appreciate the added durability but soon after purchased the canyon fire. I'd say Tom's post about adjusting to a rope is spot on. The canyonfire is my preferred rope due to the fact that it packs down much nicer which in my opinion is a big deal. But, to say the canyonero has too much friction sounds more a matter of technique.

I've used a critr, pirana and act-xp all with good results. As with others after switching to a critr I have been sold ever since. I would say I prefer to rappel with friction, as you should. The critr has slightly more friction than what I would get out of a pirana. So as opposed to on the pirana using one of the legs the critr I just rap in zero mode which equates to less twist and the fact that I have plenty of friction left is nice. I think any good canyon descender should have adjustable friction on the fly that is why I would say a atc is a lousy thing to bring into a canyon. I have been with parties who use atc and I hear them "should I use two biners on this rap or with this rope" frankly I don't know why you would use one. If i'm climbing then sure atc is great. For me rappeling is about momentum and rappeling smooth, then having plenty of braking power, that's probably why my gloves last so long.

Tom probably knows best after all they are his ropes. Get the 9.2 you wont regret buying any imlay rope. And get a descender that is adjustable, my unbiased opinion would be critr for your weight and the fact that it does kick ass.

[hank moon]

Hi Swift One

This thread is a good intro to the interconnectedness of gear choices in canyoneering. What begins as a simple question about descender choice turns out to be not so simple.

To sum up, here are some plusses and minuses of the main variables under discussion:

Variable friction rappel device vs. fixed friction device:
+ ability to adjust device friction for different rope sizes, rope lengths, changing conditions, body weights, etc.
+ easier to lock-off the device (learn how to do this ASAP)
+ relatively "drop proof" as most have a system that keeps the device secured to its attachment carabiner while installing or removing the rope

- heavier
- more expensive
- horns that catch on stuff

Canyonero vs. Canyon Fire rope:
+ More durable and damage resistant
+ Generally offers more friction in rappel devices (device dependent)
+ More versatile

- heavier
- more expensive
- higher volume

Beginners will generally be better off with a thicker rope and a variable friction rappel device. I started my vertical journey (caving) using 11 mm rope and a brake bar rack that weighs over a pound. Glad I did, 'cuz I made a lot of lurchy, beginner-typical moves in the first year and versatility/variability really helps when you are starting out. Once you've gotten out there, had some varied experiences and lived to post about it, you will be in a better position to decide whether more specialized gear (i.e. smaller diameter rope, etc.) is right for you.

Good luck and let us know what you decide, eh?

hank

p.s. CRITR or ATS may not work well for a 100 lb person as the lowest friction setting is relatively high, compared to a Pirana. Not sure if that point came out clearly in this discussion, so there it is. Try before you buy is a good idea whenever possible.

[TommyBoy]

I think any good canyon descender should have adjustable friction on the fly that is why I would say a atc is a lousy thing to bring into a canyon. I have been with parties who use atc and I hear them "should I use two biners on this rap or with this rope" frankly I don't know why you would use one.

As a beginner yes its usually best to have something you can adjust on the fly, however while its not much of a difference the atc's are lighter, smaller, and cheaper so I usually take one in canyons where I know the drops are short and/or there aren't many of them.

[Skeeter]

As a beginner yes its usually best to have something you can adjust on the fly, however while its not much of a difference the atc's are lighter, smaller, and cheaper so I usually take one in canyons where I know the drops are short and/or there aren't many of them.

I think adjustable friction is a notable advantage not just for beginners. The ability to lock off is also not something just beneficial to beginners. It's about having the right tool for the task at hand which is not very predictable.

Though you find the atc to work better for certain canyons I don't think is really relevant to this thread, unless the thread was " What slue of descenders do you keep on hand to use for canyons you may have already done". Pirana probably weighs close to my atc-xp. Having to remove the device along with the rope to come off rap I would say would be the biggest downfall and why I don't quite see it fit for an all in one canyon device, just saying.

[TommyBoy]

I think adjustable friction is a notable advantage not just for beginners. The ability to lock off is also not something just beneficial to beginners. It's about having the right tool for the task at hand which is not very predictable.

Though you find the atc to work better for certain canyons I don't think is really relevant to this thread, unless the thread was " What slue of descenders do you keep on hand to use for canyons you may have already done". Pirana probably weighs close to my atc-xp. Having to remove the device along with the rope to come off rap I would say would be the biggest downfall and why I don't quite see it fit for an all in one canyon device, just saying.

I was just responding to your comment that "an atc is a lousy thing to take into a canyon....and no one should ever take them". Its not lousy it just has a more limited range than some of the other devices, but it does have its place which was all I was saying. The weight difference you're right is very small, but size wise its smaller and again its alot cheaper (half of what the others cost) which is why I said I use it in certain spots.

Oh and I didn't mean to imply that advanced canyoneers don't need variable friction (sorry I wasn't clear on that my bad) but there are ways to set up an atc typ device for variable friction so even then you're covered.

[Slot Machine]

The CRITR rappel device was built especially to provide plenty of friction for big people on skinny ropes.

Harness Man, all you have to do is post this video. The dang thing sells itself.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWc0IjQiJs0

[Iceaxe]

[Swift One]

[QUOTEBack the your original post... You're planning on doing Coyote Gulch. You don't need a special rope for that canyon. Are you planning on doing some other canyons down there? ][/QUOTE]

Ya, but, we are looking to lighten up anyways for cliffs back up this way. There is no reason why I need to be humping around 11-12mm line when I can do it with 8 or 9mm styles. The Coyote is our first time in a big canyon. I have some experience with the waterfalls up this way but nothing real canyon style like out there. Mostly sandstone and granite (Wisconsin) cliffs. Along with buildings of course.

[Swift One]

[QUOTEp.s. CRITR or ATS may not work well for a 100 lb person as the lowest friction setting is relatively high, compared to a Pirana. Not sure if that point came out clearly in this discussion, so there it is. Try before you buy is a good idea whenever possible. ][/QUOTE]

Yes, I have decided on the critr for me and the Pirahna for her. LOL, the jury is out as far as the rope goes. I feel that I have enough rope experience to try the 8.3 but I do like the durability of the 9.2. I go on maybe 4 rappelling trips a year and practice rappelling maybe 10 times a year. I train on knots and rigging in my garage on an old piece of 11mm. Im not on the walls as frequent as you guys are. Hopefully that will help in the advice...and thanks for all the replies so far...

[qedcook]

It depends on what device you use.

T

Speaking just from experience, without any math behind it, any device I have ever used with a canyonero, even on a 200 foot rappel, still had WAY too much friction. The rope destroyed two carabiners and an ATC in one canyon alone.

[hikster11]

[QUOTE ]Yes, I have decided on the critr for me and the Pirahna for her. LOL, the jury is out as far as the rope goes. I feel that I have enough rope experience to try the 8.3 but I do like the durability of the 9.2. I go on maybe 4 rappelling trips a year and practice rappelling maybe 10 times a year. I train on knots and rigging in my garage on an old piece of 11mm. Im not on the walls as frequent as you guys are. Hopefully that will help in the advice...and thanks for all the replies so far...

The Canyonero is a good rope but with what you say your current experience is with ropes you will not be disappointed with the Canyon Fire. Im sure after a little practice with the CRITR you will love it.

[hikster11]

Speaking just from experience, without any math behind it, any device I have ever used with a canyonero, even on a 200 foot rappel, still had WAY too much friction. The rope destroyed two carabiners and an ATC in one canyon alone.

Could this have been because of a dirty rope? I have worn though a carabiner in one canyon from a dirty rope. I have also rappelled many times on my Canyonero with little to no wear at all.

[qedcook]

Could this have been because of a dirty rope? I have worn though a carabiner in one canyon from a dirty rope. I have also rappelled many times on my Canyonero with little to no wear at all.

No, in other canyons, both dry and wet, with the rope dirty and clean, the friction was too much.

[reflection]

Late to the Game; Swift Man

ROPE: If you plan to run "mostly" single strand then you may(?) wish to go with a 9mm rope. If you ride double strand though and pay attention to the rope and rap, then an 8.3 rope (even at your weight) should be more than sufficient. Packing size and weight become a "significant" issue if having to walk/trek more than a "short" distance.

Rap Device: If you come from the climbing community then an ATC style device (with various ways to add or decrease friction) is going to work in most circumstances. Double Stranding a 9mm rope through with an ATC is a challenge (too much friction) for some.

Commentators: Hidden in much of the discussion is the fact that the Pirana, CTR, often work better when single stranding. Not an issue though on short raps or other raps where high friction is not needed.

Water Canyons. Many/Most use devices like the Pirana,CTR when in water canyons so the device does not need to come off.

Options: Most active canyoneers have multiple devices and ropes. Some a use a mix of 8 and 9mm ropes and some have abandoned 9mm ropes and ride simply in the 8mm range.

Myself. I still use an ATC style device in dry canyons, find is so smooth and can adjust friction easily. I always use a Pirana past and now Critter in wet canyons. In my private group I always use/mostly use an 8.3 Canyon Fire or a Sterling 8mm line. If beginners come along, on some canyons I have the group pack a 9mm line. If beginners are single stranding (even if they have been taught options) they are frequently more at ease with a 9mm line.

I back up Hank, Brian and Slot Machine's anthems.. In 10 minutes (with the proper trainer) you could pick up the options as to how to safely use an ATC (style) device along with an 8mm (type) rope. It would benefit to also get guidance on using a Pirana or CTR. If the money is not an issue, you can easily get an ATC style, a Critter, an 8.3 Canyon Fire and a 9mm rope and then learn for yourself what you and others like. If you have a light party though, traveling in tandem with you it's best to train/practice before you get in the field. Because if A, mimics B (you) and you are going down a 9mm line double strand (in a comfortable mode) your partner if they try the same (may) get stuck in traffic (the ride) and not enjoy the game.

So much semantics and locked in styles. Find a tree, a wall, borrow someone's devices and ropes and walla, the wisdom will (at least should) flow (that is if you know all the various options to try). And remember a rope may twist much more when using a Pirana/Critter than when using an ATC "style; there are variations here of course. And there is much partisan banter between the lines. Mystery. What works for A, may not for B or C. Or what a person likes. Same conundrum. I accept that some like 9mm lines, others 8. I have no problem with that - unless I have to pack the 9mm line. (between the lines of discussion, the use patterns and preferences spill out) Happy Trails.

[Swift One]

Well, I just ordered a CRITR for my girlfriend for as one of her birthday presents. Early next year, when we start to get on the wall to train (it will be the garage first) I am going to try it out and see how I like it. After listening to everyone's experience, personal choices, and explanations of how the different styles and size canyon ropes work, I think we are going to give the Canyon Fire 8.3 a whirl. I know it will work for my girlfriend- I am going to get 150ft of it for her. I have enough rope experience to try it out when we get it and I am betting it going to work for me too. If not, then I will pick up some 9.2 for me. We are not on the walls or in canyons every weekend like a lot of you guys are. So, my rope is not going to get beat up as fast. On our cliffs back here, I take careful care in selection where the anchor is going to be and how the rope lays off of the cliff edge, so I am familiar with what a good set up is.

I want to thank everyone that helped me out on this thread. It really put me in the right direction with this lighter rope and the special gear that goes with it. Thanks again.....

[harness man]

Thanks for your order, Swift One!
Let us know how your CRITR works out!
Remember that when your rope is BRAND NEW that it will be a bit "faster" until it has had a few rappels.
Plan for MORE friction in the beginning.
Best,
Todd and Desi

[Swift One]

Thanks for your order, Swift One!
Let us know how your CRITR works out!
Remember that when your rope is BRAND NEW that it will be a bit "faster" until it has had a few rappels.
Plan for MORE friction in the beginning.
Best,
Todd and Desi

Will do. And if we like it, you can excpect a couple more to be ordered.