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Thread: Need help deciding on a descender

  1. #1

    Need help deciding on a descender

    Me and my friends do alot of camping and rappelling on cliffs in southern Indiana. We are also planning on making a trip to Utah in 2016 for some canyoneering (Coyote Gulch). That being said I have alot of experience with rappelling but it has come mainly from the tactical world where the "rescue 8" and 11 or 12mm line is the norm. I do have experience in climbing (top roping only) and am pretty well versed in knots, rope work, and anchor points.

    My last backpacking/ rappelling trip got me to thinking about going lighter. Being interested in trying some canyoneering, I have discovered the type of smaller/ lighter rope and special desending devices that canyoneers use. Through much research, we have decided we want to try the Imlay Canyonero 9.2mm line. We are going to go with the BD ATC-XP for dry conditions. However, we do a few waterfalls in Southern Indiana and from what I have read, the ATC-XP is not to be used with wet/ dirtry line. So, we need an additional descender for those conditions.

    I think it's pretty much a no brainer for my girlfriend's weight and 9.2mm line, that the Petzle Pirahna will do fine. However, I am around 230 and I have heard the Pirahna is not going to cut it for me. I have looked at the ATS real hard, but some recent research via the internet has led me to wonder if the 9.2mm line is going to be too much for the ATS. I am also led to wonder with my weight if I can use the Pirahna successfully with 9.2mm line.

    I would like some advice from you guys that have used these devices (especially the heavier guys). Thanks.

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  4. #2
    I am not super heavy, but this thing is very nice anyway
    http://www.canyonwerks.com/critr-rappel-device/

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  6. #3
    Second the recommendation for the CRITR (reviewed HERE).

    Getting the right amount of friction with an ATC can be tricky. For general canyoneering, I would not recommend using an ATC, especially at 230 lb. No reason not to use a "real" canyon rappel device, in dry or wet conditions. CRITR will do better than Pirana for your weight. Girlfriend sounds lighter? Pirana could work well for her if she's "lighter enough," but CRITR is a better device overall.

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  8. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Swift One View Post
    Me and my friends do alot of camping and rappelling on cliffs in southern Indiana. We are also planning on making a trip to Utah in 2016 for some canyoneering (Coyote Gulch). That being said I have alot of experience with rappelling but it has come mainly from the tactical world where the "rescue 8" and 11 or 12mm line is the norm. I do have experience in climbing (top roping only) and am pretty well versed in knots, rope work, and anchor points.

    My last backpacking/ rappelling trip got me to thinking about going lighter. Being interested in trying some canyoneering, I have discovered the type of smaller/ lighter rope and special desending devices that canyoneers use. Through much research, we have decided we want to try the Imlay Canyonero 9.2mm line. We are going to go with the BD ATC-XP for dry conditions. However, we do a few waterfalls in Southern Indiana and from what I have read, the ATC-XP is not to be used with wet/ dirtry line. So, we need an additional descender for those conditions.

    I think it's pretty much a no brainer for my girlfriend's weight and 9.2mm line, that the Petzle Pirahna will do fine. However, I am around 230 and I have heard the Pirahna is not going to cut it for me. I have looked at the ATS real hard, but some recent research via the internet has led me to wonder if the 9.2mm line is going to be too much for the ATS. I am also led to wonder with my weight if I can use the Pirahna successfully with 9.2mm line.

    I would like some advice from you guys that have used these devices (especially the heavier guys). Thanks.
    I am about 210 and usually carry a pretty heavy pack. For the last 10 years I have always been searching for that better rappel device - never completely satisfied . Started with the ATC xp, graduated to the Pirana, tried the Totem for a awhile, really liked the ATS but am now using the CRITR. Given my weight and friction issues and the various types of canyons, wet and dry, the CRITR hands down is the best device for me so far. Until something better comes along .......
    Don't believe everything you think.

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  10. #5
    CRITR!!!!!
    CanyoneeringUtah.blogspot.com
    My YouTube Channel

    "As you journey through life, choose your destination well, but do not hurry there. You will arrive soon enough. Wander the back roads and forgotten path[s] ... Such things are riches for the soul. And if upon arrival, you find that your destination is not exactly as you had dreamed, ... know that the true worth of your travels lies not in where you come to be at journey

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  12. #6
    Thanks everyone!

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    You can find the CRITR at http://canyonwerks.com
    Best,
    Todd and Desi

  13. #7
    Must....resist....temptation....to ....post....about....rope....twist....

    Resist......resist....

    Oh, too darn late.

    Todd, can you design a device that has the CRITR's attributes but on a non-twisting device like a DMM Bug?

    (Note to OP: like others, I'm actually very happy about the CRITR for its safety features and ease of use in adding or reducing friction)

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  15. #8
    Wow. You guys really like that critr. I will look more into that. I'm glad I registered here. I have vast experience with rappelling into windows and out of them with another person attached to you. Also off of cliffs. But it's all with heavier line. I am really wanting to go lighter but want to get the right stuff the first time. I like that you can adjust your friction while on the rappell with the critr.

    Thanks for the intell on the ATC-xp. I have a lot of rappelling experience with the original ATC, but with 11mm static. So, that is good to know with the skinnier line and the ATC-XP.

    A question about the critr. Is it thicker than the ATS? I have heard that heavy use of the ATS results in a short life because it is thin.

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  17. #9
    CRITR and Imlay Canyon Fire rope

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  19. #10
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikster11 View Post
    CRITR and Imlay Canyon Fire rope
    At the claimed weight, the Original Poster would do better with the Canyonero. Sounds like he is a fire fighter, and a big guy, so carrying a bit of extra rope weight will not be a great strain for him.

    I think the rope path of the CRITR is better designed, resulting in a better wear pattern than the ATS.

    The DMM BUG is an ATC knock-off. Being a designer type, I think the original designer and product should be recognized, rather than the knock-off version, however beloved.

    Some Info on using the ATC-XP here: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...tc-rappelling/

    Welcome to the sport Swift One!

    Tom

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  21. #11
    I like the CRITR and ATS equally well. I have not tried the piranah and my totem is collecting dust (I should give it a try at least). Like Tom says, the CRITR seems to have a better wear pattern than the ATS. However, I did come across a slight issue with the CRITTR that everyone should be aware of so it can be avoided. I want to re-create it on video, but have not had the chance. So for now I will just try and explain.

    A few weeks ago in Tatahatso canyon I was leading one of the raps that had an awkward start. (Yea, okay almost all of them in Tatahatso are awkward :-) ). Anyway, the rap required you to lower yourself over a chockstone in order to weight the anchor. There wasn't much in the way of handholds or footholds being undercut so I used the webbing as a handline and lowered myself right over the rap ring and biner block. Once weighted I started lowering myself, but the foot of the CRIT had caught the biner that was being used for the block. This resulted in the block moving/coming down with me as I rapped, moving it away from the ring, thereby shorthening the length of rope we had played out (for every 2 feet 1 rapped, the rope would have been 1 foot shorter).

    I tried to slide the biner off of the foot of the CRITR but as you can see the legs are much longer than that of an ATS. So I tied off (BTW - which is very easy on the CRITR) to have both hands to work with. The problem was that since I was free hanging, I couldn't get much purchase on the walls to lift myself up to free the biner. Luckily I notice right away, so I wasn't too far from the anchor webbing and was able to grab that to slightly unweight the rope and release the biner.


    I hope to get a video of this soon, or at least maybe find out it was a fluke and not easy to recreate.

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  23. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by mzamp View Post
    ... my totem is collecting dust ....
    +1.....


    Quote Originally Posted by mzamp View Post
    .....the foot of the CRIT had caught the biner that was being used for the block. .....
    Yeah, I could see that happening. I guess you just need to be careful and keep it clear of catching. The flip side is that those nice big legs make wrapping the rope so easy.

    RE rope twist: it is a lot better than my old Totem in standard mode, throttle mode might be a tad better. I still like the Totem, but never use it anymore...

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  25. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    At the claimed weight, the Original Poster would do better with the Canyonero. Sounds like he is a fire fighter, and a big guy, so carrying a bit of extra rope weight will not be a great strain for him.

    I think the rope path of the CRITR is better designed, resulting in a better wear pattern than the ATS.

    The DMM BUG is an ATC knock-off. Being a designer type, I think the original designer and product should be recognized, rather than the knock-off version, however beloved.

    Some Info on using the ATC-XP here: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...tc-rappelling/

    Welcome to the sport Swift One!

    Tom

    From what I have read, I am under the impression that the 8mm ropes are not going to be that good for me becuase of my weight. Am I wrong about that? I have also read that the 9.2 is a little more longer lasting that the 8mm.

  26. #14
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzamp View Post
    A few weeks ago in Tatahatso canyon I was leading one of the raps that had an awkward start. (Yea, okay almost all of them in Tatahatso are awkward :-) ). Anyway, the rap required you to lower yourself over a chockstone in order to weight the anchor. There wasn't much in the way of handholds or footholds being undercut so I used the webbing as a handline and lowered myself right over the rap ring and biner block. Once weighted I started lowering myself, but the foot of the CRIT had caught the biner that was being used for the block. This resulted in the block moving/coming down with me as I rapped, moving it away from the ring, thereby shorthening the length of rope we had played out (for every 2 feet 1 rapped, the rope would have been 1 foot shorter).

    I tried to slide the biner off of the foot of the CRITR but as you can see the legs are much longer than that of an ATS. So I tied off (BTW - which is very easy on the CRITR) to have both hands to work with. The problem was that since I was free hanging, I couldn't get much purchase on the walls to lift myself up to free the biner. Luckily I notice right away, so I wasn't too far from the anchor webbing and was able to grab that to slightly unweight the rope and release the biner.


    I hope to get a video of this soon, or at least maybe find out it was a fluke and not easy to recreate.
    I had a similar problem with the ATS on awkward starts, but in these cases (3?, 5?) the left side foot caught on a little ledge and then rotated the device. Was devilish getting it off the ledge without purchase.

    Also of note, with the ATS or Pirana or CRITR, if you are using a setting beyond the "0" setting, be sure to check that it is still set up correctly after your awkward downclimb onto the rope. Had a young lady be surprised in Heaps (last rappel in the canyon) to find not enough friction on her Pirana (first canyon using it), and running out of hand 20 feet from the ground. Fell that last 20 feet, thankfully into a pool of water. Not a good setup for the final rappel sequence, which she was already anxious about. (We SHOULDA had a bottom belay on her there, yes.)

    Tom

  27. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ratagonia View Post
    At the claimed weight, the Original Poster would do better with the Canyonero. Sounds like he is a fire fighter, and a big guy, so carrying a bit of extra rope weight will not be a great strain for him.

    I think the rope path of the CRITR is better designed, resulting in a better wear pattern than the ATS.

    The DMM BUG is an ATC knock-off. Being a designer type, I think the original designer and product should be recognized, rather than the knock-off version, however beloved.

    Some Info on using the ATC-XP here: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...tc-rappelling/

    Welcome to the sport Swift One!

    Tom
    Politely disagree. The canyonero has too much friction for anyone.

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  29. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    Politely disagree. The canyonero has too much friction for anyone.
    Really depends on the rap, I clock in at 175 without the gear and in most situations I've found the canyonero to be high on the friction side, but not so much that I couldn't manage. There have been a few times, ie C canyons with higher flow, where even with the canyonero I felt like I could have used a little more friction. While its not for everyone it does have its place.

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  31. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBoy View Post
    Really depends on the rap, I clock in at 175 without the gear and in most situations I've found the canyonero to be high on the friction side, but not so much that I couldn't manage. There have been a few times, ie C canyons with higher flow, where even with the canyonero I felt like I could have used a little more friction. While its not for everyone it does have its place.
    Good point, TB. Would be interesting to measure how the difference between one's weight (or effective load on the rope) on a rap when it's dry, and when it's under a pounding waterfall.

    Maybe a field trip to one of those Frenchy artificial canyons is in order?

    re: Canyonero friction. I weight 165 or so dry and naked, and have done raps up to 300' on canyonero w/o problem. It's all about judging rope type, environmental conditions, choice of rap device and its settings, and so on.

    To say that a rope has "too much friction" without giving any parameters is not meaningful.

  32. #18
    I'm 100 kilos plus, and, I mostly rappel on any rope with an ATC-XP type device (mainly a reverso 3 or 4 nowadays). Easy to rig enough friction, BUT, I usually rappel double strand.

    Add one or two carabiners next to the main rappel carabiner for initially more friction on an ATC. Easy and smooth and doesn't twist the rope. You can add more friction by adding a biner on a leg loop and above the device too. Z rig.

    Most of my rappelling is double strand on a climbing rope, down to 7.5mm (my twins) but mainly a 8.9 to 9.4mm dynamic rope. ATC is smooth... I use an ATC type device on my BW canyon pros at 8mm. Again, usually double strand. I really think unless you're rigging for a contingency lower, or, have to use a thin diameter pull cord, rappelling single strand from a biner block or knot block just seems silly to me. Plus, less chance of damaging your ropes with double strand rappelling too.

    I use an ATS (also have a Pirana as a loaner) as my main wet canyon descender. Easy to add friction. I use the Sterling canyon rope(s) mostly.

  33. #19
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    Politely disagree. The canyonero has too much friction for anyone.
    It depends on what device you use.

    T

  34. #20
    A Tom paraphrase-ism: "EVERY canyoneer should be able to adjust friction as needed to safely descend ANY diameter of rope."

    Not picking a fight or anything, but I'm a little bit surprised at the 9.2 recommendation. (I guess if you sell them you get a pass.)

    Big men should adjust to skinny ropes and not ask little folks to adjust to a fat ropes. A 200 ft drop for a 100lb person on a 9.2 creates a TON of needless work and wastes much time. There are always options for going slower, but not always options for going faster.

    IMO the only time a 9.2 should be used is in rope-eating canyons, and is a great rope for that. Otherwise, the 8.3 Canyon Fire is the way to go.

    ----

    As for ATC's, there is a difference between the ATC-XP and the ATC-XP Guide. For reasons I can't explain, the guide version doesn't hop along the rope as it feeds. It is buttery smooth and worth the extra $10. I'm on my third ATC-XP Guide and I love it. Big fellas should use two biners under the ATC. I've even heard of people using three biners when extra nervous.

    Piranas are pretty cool too, but they leave aluminum residue all over everything/everyone. Many folks don't appreciate their ropes and hands turning black. I only use mine in very water intensive canyons, because it is difficult to lose when unclipping.
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