Intentional Damage to Cap. Reef leads to fines

[Scott Card]

Seems they got off easy.





SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — Three rock climbers have paid a $4,000 settlement to Capitol Reef National Park in Utah for violating climbing policies in the making of a photograph that appeared in a Patagonia clothing catalog, a park official said Tuesday.

Park rangers discovered illegal climbing routes in the red rock park after seeing the photograph in a September 2011 Patagonia catalog, park Superintendent Leah McGinnis said.

The image depicted a first climb on a new route.

Rangers found illegal climbing bolts were embedded in rock, and other rocks had been moved to create three illegal climbing routes. Climbing is allowed in areas of the park, but climbers are not allowed to place new bolts or fixed hardware.

McGinnis said the rangers contacted Patagonia and do not believe it knew about the illegal climbing.

A freelance photographer shot the image, and the company has no relationship with the two people pictured climbing, Patagonia spokesman Adam Fetcher said.

The company is reviewing its freelance photography policies and reaching out to the photographer involved to find out what happened, he said.

"We work very hard to makes sure every photo we publish depicts responsible climbing practices that align with Patagonia's broad environmental mission by asking vigilant questions and requiring locations always be identified," Fetcher said in a statement.

He said the image featured in the catalog was an action shot and did not showcase gear or clothing for customers to order.
McGinnis said the settlement will be used to remove the climbing bolts and fill in the holes.

Patagonia apologized in 2006 and later stopped sponsoring a person who climbed Delicate Arch in Arches National Park in Utah.

The climber was not charged with any violation for the 2006 climb but the park tightened its policies to make it clear that climbing of named arches or natural bridges is not allowed.



http://www.ksl.com/?sid=31678922&nid...s_cid=topstory

[Deathcricket]

I'd need more information. But it seems a little steep to me. Did they catch them placing bolts red handed? I suspect not since a picture had already made it to the catalog. My guess is the climbers fessed up and admitted to the wrongdoing, how else would the courts even prove it? But I guess sometimes you have to make an example of people so others take it more serious and don't follow in their footsteps. but I don't see a couple discreet bolts on the same level as say..... Toppling a goblin or even graphiti type crimes. I actually think scratching your initials in a rock as more abusive honestly.

[Scott Card]

but I don't see a couple discreet bolts on the same level as say..... Toppling a goblin or even graphiti type crimes. I actually think scratching your initials in a rock as more abusive honestly.

I see very little difference. Bolts placed, illegal routes, and "other rocks had been moved". Seems like a repeat offense also. Seems like a drop in the bucket for a company compared to individuals paying that amount.

[Scott P]

I see very little difference. Bolts placed, illegal routes, and "other rocks had been moved".

Bolts can be removed and holes patched. The fine is supposed to go for the cost of doing this.

Graffiti and toppling of Goblins is harder to fix.

I'm not saying I agree with what the climbers did; only that graffiti (especially around pictographs and petroglyphs) and pushing over goblins/hoodoos is worse and what the climbers because it is easier to fix.

Placing bolts is legal in some national parks, but not others. It is legal in Zion National Park, for example.

Perhaps the most common place for placing illegal bolts is in the Glen Canyon National Recreational Area. It is illegal to place or replace bolts in the National Recreational Area. This includes places like Neon Canyon and Choprock Canyon, regardless if they existed there previously. People have removed bolts in Neon Canyon, but it's illegal to replace them. Since the bolts at the last station in Neon Canyon have been removed several times, it is obvious that people are replacing them illegally. I'm willing to bet that dozens of Bogley members have used the illegal bolts regardless if they are the ones that placed them.

I'm not saying that I advocate replacing bolts or removing them, but only pointing out that some areas/NP's seem to turn a blind eye to things that other National Parks are more strict on. Zion is more lenient with climbers than say, Canyonlands National Park (or apparently Capitol Reef). This is true of other user groups as well. People drive ATV's/Side by sides along the Hole in the Rock Road within the NRA, but technically this is (or was, haven't kept up with possible changes) illegal. As long as people stay on the road, they probably wouldn't do much about it.

It's important to know the regulations of any lands you visit. It's always best (in my opinion) to just follow the law.

Anyway, as long as someone admits that they did something (especially if they stepped forward) and is willing to fix it (assuming something can be fixed), that seems fair restitution to me. They thing that stirred up more anger in the goblin toppling incident was that they wouldn't admit wrong doing (at least at first) and kept saying that they would do it again.

Seems like a drop in the bucket for a company compared to individuals paying that amount.

Not sure what you mean. Individuals paid the fine, a company didn't. Or am I missing something?

[Sombeech]

Everybody goes to riot for the goblin topplers, while hardly anybody could point out the location of the incident.

These climbers on the other hand, are getting a lot more sympathy even though their route was discovered, could be pointed out, rocks were moved, bolts were left...

Fat people are just wrong, that's pretty much what people want to say but they can't.

Climbers are cool, they're active, and most of the time really good looking. They're stoked, bro.

And worst of all, this damage was done for commercial monetary gain. The goblin topplers were just a couple of idiots.

Some folks are realizing this and they're thinking; I hate capitalism, but I love climbers.... which way should I lean on this?

[Scott P]

These climbers on the other hand, are getting a lot more sympathy

I think the only reason they might be treated differently (thus far at least until there is more info available) is because with the Goblin topplers, not only were they were putting a video on line and laughing about it, but they were saying that they would do the same thing and didn't appear to be sorry. Plus they were boyscout leaders and are supposed to be setting a good example. I would have had more sympathy for the goblin topplers had they fessed up, said they were sorry, and didn't keep trying to claim that they were providing a public service.

Even with the stolen dinosaur track in Moab (for example), the damage could have been fixed if the person simply came forward, admitted he was in the wrong, and gave back the track. Instead he threw it in the river before coming forward. I think if there was a video of it, there would be much more uproar.

(I also have to admit that I've also done some stupid crap in my life and in the outdoors as well).

Thus far, we haven't seen any photos of the damage in Capitol Reef and it sounds like it can be repaired. If it can't, I assume there will be more uproar, but I'm guessing not as much as if there was a video and people could see it. There's no way to repair something like a pushed over goblin; but hopefully any damage in Capitol Reef can be fixed.

Rest assured though if there was a video of the climbers flaunting the rules and saying how awesome it was, I think there would be more outrage. Still, there were photographs.

I really haven't seen any sympathy for the climbers, other then Deathcricket says it seems a little steep to him. Saying that was event could have been more serious than another, or is probably harder to fix doesn't really equate to sympathy. To be quite honest, I have an overall pretty low opinion of the sport climbing crowd in general (even though I have occasionally done some of those routes). I know I'm generalizing, but I really dislike what they have done to places like parts of Maple Canyon, for example.

For the whole story above though, we need pictures and to know for sure if the damage can be repaired. Too bad that the pictures used in all the news stories aren't even taken in the same area where the incident took place.

Climbers are cool, they're active, and most of the time really good looking.

You must hang out with a different kind of climber than I have seen. Most of them are ugly and smell. Same with canyoneers. Most of the people that do that stuff frequently are dirtbags with few social skills. ;) I guess some of the females might be an exception.

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PS, when doing something illegal, why put videos or photos of it in catalogs and on the internet? I'm glad that people get caught by doing so, but I have to wonder what is going through their minds when they do it.

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OK, I'm going to stir the pot now. So, what about the illegal bolts in Neon Canyon as in my example above? Assuming that you weren't the one who placed them, is it still unethical to use them since they were placed illegally? Should they be removed since they were placed illegally? I'm betting that if someone removes them (again) and admits it online, that they will get some flack.

[Sombeech]

I

PS, when doing something illegal, why put videos or photos of it in catalogs and on the internet? I'm glad that people get caught by doing so, but I have to wonder what is going through their minds when they do it.

Yeah obviously they love to see the "hits" number grow, or the likes, or the shares. Whether or not they knew it was strictly against park policy to topple a goblin, or if they can read at all, I think their intentions are clearly different. They did it for a laugh, to show how strong they are (with an alleged back injury) and to maybe try out that new phone camera gadget on the youtube machine.

With the climbers, it's about getting the coolest shot, promoting a product, and indirectly promoting a cool lifestyle. It's more than likely that they knew the rules before they climbed the route, and they were monetarily rewarded for their actions.

Often the question can be asked of two situations like this, which one was more damaging? (as if we need a contest) One was a large rock (that nobody would be able to locate without other help) and the other was a route that was easily found where more damage/disturbance to the area was discovered.

It's interesting to see the variance in public outrage. One got a lot of critical coverage, and one might have been seen by just as many people but on a magazine.

[Scott P]

One got a lot of critical coverage, and one might have been seen by just as many people but on a magazine.

Maybe, but did the people that saw it in the magazine know that it was an illegal route or that illegal bolts were placed? I'm guessing they didn't since if so it would have been reported a long time ago. I would have pointed it out myself.

I can't find the photo anywhere on the internet, but if anyone can find it, please post.

Often the question can be asked of two situations like this, which one was more damaging?

Easy to answer (for all such situations). Which ever is harder to fix. Unfortunately, no one is posting photos of the damage done by the climbers. It appears that the NPS says that it can be fixed.

PS, since no one has commented on the Neon Canyon situation, I'll post it in the canyoneering section sometime. Could be interesting conversation.

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PS, I'm still trying to see what you are getting at. I think it's obviously why the video on the Goblin topplers has gotten more publicity. It is because of the video and lack of remorse. Plus the fact that the person pushing over the rock was claiming disability.

It isn't because they are more fat or aren't climbers.

Look at all the negative publicity Dean Potter got for climbing Delicate Arch:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=dean+p...c0149fd74cb19f

He got a lot of critical coverage from the media. The difference is that he wasn't prosecuted criminally charged because the NPS rule was deemed to be vague on the definition of climbing (though I disagree with that ruling). He did however, lose his sponsors and did lose a huge percentage of his income.

Fatali, a famous photographer/hiker/canyoneer was also criminally charged for lighting a fire at Delicate Arch:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=fatali...d462710ac64248

He also got a huge amount of negative publicity.

The goblin topplers were not the only ones who have ever received a lot of negative publicity for doing something stupid in a national or state park, nor should it be that way. I don't think it would have mattered if the goblin topplers were skinny or not.