NEW / OLD CANYONEERING ROPE

[harness man]

We are pleased to announce that our favorite canyoneering rope,
the BlueWater Rope 8mm ZION PRO is now manufactured by BlueWater exclusively for http://canyonwerks.com
The 8mm ZION PRO, formerly named the Canyon Pro, has the same bright orange sheath but now with a green tracer (instead of the old blue tracer).
Used for many years by Zion Adventure Company for guiding in Zion area canyons, the ZION PRO works brilliantly with the CRITR rappel device.
So we are including a FREE CRITR with every rope sale.
for more info see us at http://canyonwerks.com
Best
Todd and Desiree

[reflection]

Todd, while I compliment you heartily on your quiver of new gear (some of which I have purchased and used) I don't understand the gusto and promotion of a rope that came into existence over a decade ago, was popular, then went into disfavor, and now apparently has a new life and glow.

Years back when the rope came out, we used it extensively in wet canyons like Imlay, Heaps and wet Pine Creek; and we loved the light weight for "long walk" Fat Mans Misery. I remember one season though using at least 10 of the Canyon Pro ropes (in varying sizes) and that more than 50 percent (died) and another 25 percent had problems. In wet canyons we'd use old figure 8's or the Pirana (and not tubed devices) and one of two things happened; long stretches of sheath would slip off, or sections within the rope would come loose and semi-break apart. There was a high frequency of this over at least a five year period. (that's when the price was not so extravagant.) In wet canyons we'd switch the "end of the rope" part way through the canyon, or we'd try and keep raps at double strand, but still the integrity of the rope was far less than stellar.

I note that you have tested the line with a ubiquitous style of tubed devices. I wonder if you have also field tested it in wet canyons with heavy or even mid weight people rapping single strand? Maybe the rope, components and sheath have changed? Regardless, at 200 ft and $300 it's a pricey option that arguably is not going to sustain X of raps especially in wet canyons. At least that's my guess. Will the rope work for some, possibly or maybe not?

But then maybe your experience, testing and sense of it all, is different; and possibly you see the product working even with the "lite" sheath and high price.

Way back when, we'd do Imlay maybe three times a season, take the Canyon Pro ropes through (and other lines) and the average amounted to a whopping 50% made it through and the others were simply thrown away (or returned to the seller). But other folk would say they never or rarely had problems with the Canyon Pro. And so the story lines (and experience) differ; regardless, I now use 8.5 & 9mm lines and have a pricy Sterling 8mm (weight wise) 200 ft rope that gets used sometimes in "dry" canyon. In wet canyons though I never use an 8mm line anymore.

Regardless. Todd, Good Luck in your effort. You &Tom (especially) offer gear that makes canyoneering so efficient and enjoyable (generally).

Maybe my past experience is irrelevant and dated and has NOTHING to do with the future of your 8mm line promotion and endeavor. Good luck to you seriously? And to interested purchasers, maybe you want to "weigh" the pros and cons of the line, or maybe not, and maybe the $ is a consideration, or for others, maybe not? Safety, Efficiency, Enjoyment (with safety always trumping, by leaps and bounds.) The weight and size of a stuffed rope, so important (much of the time); the siren sound of a lite expert rope. Just like tribes, politics and religion, some will follow and join the fold. Hallelujah - say a prayer/offer a salute for those lite (wet) thin sheath ropes in x, y or z canyons. Promotion, hype, all part of the glitter and pull. For some, I suppose, it will work and do just fine. Let's hope (the tires) rope (for the $) wears well.

[Byron]

Oh mains!

[harness man]

Hi Reflection
Thanks for your feedback on the Canyon Pro/ Zion Pro rope.
Desiree and I and a lot of our local canyon 'crew' have been on Bluewater 8mm Zion Pro/ Canyon Pro, 8mm Dual Sheath, and 8mm Canyon Extreme for the last two years and all of the ropes have performed amazingly well.
We like the BlueWater 'skinnies' so much that we designed a rappel device optimized for them (the CRITR).
A couple of our regular partners are over 220 lbs and carry BIG packs and have loved the ropes also- and many of our local buddies have purchased 8mm Zion Pro and 8mm Dual Sheath and been using them with out incident.
We do NOT recommend Zion Pro to everyone! But, we did want to PRESERVE the rope for those who might appreciate it.
Best bang-per-buck: we recommend Imlay 8.3mm CanyonFire.
For ourselves in Zion Canyons?
BlueWater 8mm Zion Pro
Best, Todd and Desiree
Interesting that ZAC has been guiding on Canyon Pro/ Zion Pro for so many years.......

[hank moon]

ZAC has been guiding on Canyon Pro/ Zion Pro for so many years.......

Yes.

Perhaps there were some minor bugs in Canyon Pro 1.x but if so they have long since been worked out. I used Canyon Pro on ~200+ ZAC guided trips / 10,000s of rap feet and it is a very reliable performer. Lightweight, super durable for 8 mm, good hand. Certainly one of the best all-around 8 mm ropes on the market. I'm pretty sure ZAC is still using it via custom order from BW. It was ordered in 5 colors for coding purposes. Wish I could get that lime green...

That said, it's not for everyone and not a good choice for unsupervised beginners.

Note: One property of Canyon Pro is that it shrinks quite a bit* and said shrinkage usually becomes obvious with use due to the low elongation of the rope. Some sheath slippage with a new rope is common and inconsequential.

* Guesstimate: up to around 20% over the life of the rope? Might be some numbers on this in the Yahoo archive but I'm not inclined to search at the moment. Maybe Tom has some figures?

[harness man]

Thank you Byron and Hank for the discussion of Zion Pro rope.
(And thanks for using some of the gear we manufacture)
Obviously folks can have very different views of the same rope!
Our experience with the 8mm Zion Pro is like that of Hank's: we find it to be a solid performer and we love that it is light weight (very important for our tired, old backs), stuffs small (it can go INSIDE your pack!), and handles very nicely when you are schlepping it thru 20-40 plus rappels in a day.
But it is NOT the rope for unsupervised beginners!
We think the name says it best: "ZION" (best use for the softer sandstone of Zion/Red Rock canyons), "PRO" (professional /expert users; NOT a good first rope)
Desi and I started http://canyonwerks.com to provide our canyoneering friends with more gear choices.
Better for our sport!
We love the Zion Pro and want to keep it available for those who appreciate it's many fine qualities.
Best, Todd and Desiree

[Brian in SLC]

Still have a pair of older BW canyon pro's....still going strong. They both look like they're fairly new. Have to be around 10+ years old. No issues with the sheath. Sweet, light ropes.

I do like that lightweight Sterling canyon rope, though...(great for short approaches especially with folks not saavy in the rappelling-over-an-edge department).

[flatiron]

Curious? Todd, both Brian and Hank say they have used and love this rope. When I go to website it says "do not use ATC - only use CRITR.
Wondering, what have they been using all these years? Obviously not the CRITR.
I'm intrigued in the rope and even buying/using a CRITR, but most people I do canyons with will not have one.
What say you all?

[Brian in SLC]

That's funny. Mine is exclusively an ATC or ATC type device. I won't allow any other...ha ha.

I use skinny cords especially for climbing all the time. Down to a Mammut twin at 7.5mm. Most current ATC-XP or Petzl reverso type devices handle that diameter rope just fine. As do most tube/plate type devices.

What I'd be scared to see, is, a person going single on a slick 8mm rope of any manufacture with a figure eight or Pirana rigged with the lowest friction.

Maybe even single with an ATC...(ala Pine Creek rescue broken back thing a few years ago...).

[harness man]

Hi Flatiron
Good question!
and the answer involves two related issues: wear and tear (warranty) and safety.
Desi and I are BIG on safety (our 'day job' is designing and building safety equipment).
So we promote the CRITR in every way possible because it is a safer rappel device (of course one has to read, and follow the instructions!)
The CRITR is 'safer' partly because it is superb at controlling heavy loads on skinny ropes (ATCs are NOT good at this)
Also as a 'by-product' of the CRITR's increased surface area and more rounded edges it is very kind to ropes (ATC's are not)
So the bad news for the ZION PRO from Canyon Werks is: NO ATC's
Good news is: FREE CRITR
We hope that this will extend the life of the rope, and probably extend the life of a few canyoneers as well.
Having almost lost a buddy (single line on an ATC) and having (nearly) gotten into trouble that way myself, we think it is wise to provide an expert rope- Zion Pro with the state of the art rappel device- the CRITR.
Sort of like when you buy a high performance car....you gotta fill it with premium.

[hank moon]

Curious? Todd, both Brian and Hank say they have used and love this rope. When I go to website it says "do not use ATC - only use CRITR.
Wondering, what have they been using all these years? Obviously not the CRITR.
I'm intrigued in the rope and even buying/using a CRITR, but most people I do canyons with will not have one.
What say you all?

http://canyoncollective.com/threads/...63/#post-83607

for discussion on ATCs and Zion Pro.

I have used mostly Pirana, sometimes ATC-XP on Canyon/Zion Pro w/o any problems. Having worked for a rope mfg., I know that the returns dept. can have a tough time with people (mostly beginners) who feel justified in returning a rope due to sheath slippage. A moderate amount of sheath slippage is normal, especially when the rope is new. This can be mitigated somewhat by soaking the rope before use. If slippage does occur, simply hot-cut the excess sheath off.

As for the CRITR, I've been testing one for the last couple months. Quick take: similar to Pirana, but with higher friction, more friction options, more useful friction settings, makes a pleasant chiming sound while walking. Will post up a detailed review in the nearish future.

hank

[harness man]

Thanks Hank for your informative reply.
Here are some little 'secrets' the rope makers and sellers do not broadcast because they want to sell LOTS of rope:
The sheaths can and do slip on all canyon specific ropes. The culprits are always ATCs.
(There are ropes that don't do this as much. They are called 'climbing ropes', which are terrible in canyons.)
That is why there are 'work-arounds' like soaking and drying the rope.
ATCs are very popular, especially with people moving from climbing to canyoneering, and no one wants to hear that their beloved rap device is crappy for canyons and canyon ropes (Hey- we know- we are old time climbers turned noob canyoneers).
But they are crappy, and we found Piranas and ATS's have serious flaws of their own- hence the CRITR.
Also, for those of you getting ready to buy your first canyoneering rope-
BRAND NEW canyoneering ropes are CRAZY, SLIPPERY, potential DEATH cords!
BRAND NEW and WET= times two!
You MUST set yourself up with a LOT more friction, maybe double, triple, or higher than what you would use on an older rope. On a CRITR go straight to initial friction setting TWO (both legs). On single line be prepared to add more.
Why?
In order to weave those fancy ropes at high speed all the fibers are coated/processed with lubricant.
On a brand new rope there are NO 'fuzzies' to help with your grip.
Out of the box- that puppy is gonna be a ROCKET.
NEVER commit yourself to a BIG drop on a brand new rope.
Soak it, dry it, take it out and practice rappel in short sections to break it in.
Usually two or three runs and the friction goes up dramatically.
We know, no one has any patience any more and wants to be acknowledged as an instant EXPERT
But......as Mr. Jones has rightly pointed out... rappelling is a 'craft' and must be learned and practiced.
All seasoned climbers think they are rappelling pro's (we did, "been up El Cap, blah, blah,blah")
But... as week-end canyoneers, mostly Zion, we have done more rappels in two years than in the last 20 years on the rock!
It is all about the rappelling!
And down-climbing
and rigging
and group dynamics
and water
ETC
Be safe
Todd and Desi

[ratagonia]

Thanks Hank for your informative reply.
Here are some little 'secrets' the rope makers and sellers do not broadcast because they want to sell LOTS of rope:
...

Well, yes and no. Maybe we don't give away the secrets because there are no secrets. My observations on the whole process are a bit different than Todd's. Like Hank, I have roughly 200 guiding days at ZAC, using the Canyon Pro. I like the rope a lot, but our carefully controlled guiding environment contributes to the "liking" of that particular rope, and may not apply to canyoneers and canyons in general.

Making ropes is as much a craft or art as it is a science. Yes, we TRY to make them all come out the same and come out just right, but at the fine detail level there is considerable variation in how the rope comes out. Once delivered to the canyoneer, what happens next is also quite variable (the 'history'). Set up a 150' rappel and have 10 Bubbas rap a couple times - there's going to be a soft spot on the rope at that 150' point. If the rope has a couple chances to be wetted and dried before in encounters hard use, it will tighten up nicely and perform well for the rest of its years.

But to specifics:

"The sheaths can and do slip on all canyon specific ropes. The culprits are always ATCs."

Sheaths can and do slip on all kernmantle ropes (except new special (expensive) climbing ropes where the core and sheath are partially inter-woven). The primary factor here is how tightly the sheath is woven over the core. While ATC's in high friction mode are perhaps worse than other rap devices, they are only somewhat worse. ALL rappel devices grasp the sheath and try to pull it along the core. Sheath slippage is worse when: A. the slippage is lubricated (ie, the rope is wet); B. the same exact rappel is repeated several times (sheath slippage accumulates at the bottom of the rappel; C. the core of the rope is a zero-friction fiber like spectra or dyneema; and/or D. the sheath is not tightly woven to the core. "D" is where the variations in manufacturing come in - the tightness can vary from batch to batch, or even from section to section on the spool. I have gotten Canyon Pro that is very tight, and Canyon Pro that is very loose. Certainly a few wet-dry cycles, either by intention or by happenstance, are helpful in minimizing sheath slippage.

But also, the sharper angles produced in an ATC and ATC-clones due tend to cause more slippage than the softer angles of a Pirana or Pirana variants, or an old-school Figure 8. That groove on the ATC-XP is definitely a sheath-slippage inducer. Personally I rarely use the ATC-XP in high-friction mode, preferring to add two biners. http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techtips/black-diamond-atc-rappelling/

"But they (ATCs) are crappy, and we found Piranas and ATS's have serious flaws of their own- hence the CRITR."

It is good for parents to love their own children.
"BRAND NEW canyoneering ropes are CRAZY, SLIPPERY, potential DEATH cords! BRAND NEW and WET= times two!"

To some extent, true, but the difference between brand new and broken in is especially large with the Canyon Pro. At ZAC, I used the Canyon Pro double strand until broken in, which takes 4 or 5 trips. I estimate the difference between brand-new and broken-in Canyon Pro to be about 1.5:1. Add the partial technora sheath and it becomes somewhat better. One thing I like about my Imlay ropes is that the difference between brand new and broken in is much smaller, maybe 1.1:1, and they break in with 2 or 3 raps. I think this is a difference in the weaving lubricants used and how the slightly different polyester fibers hold and retain the lubricant. Also, Imlay ropes are more-tightly woven, and stiffer when new -- that stiffness compensates for the initial smoothness, and they soften up a bit at a similar rate to the initial smoothness being roughed up.

How ropes respond to being fully wet also varies, both from brand to brand and from batch to batch. I always found newish Canyon Pro to be especially bad when wet, with very active and obvious sheath slippage, resulting in bunching and chatter. Once well broken in, it performs quite well when wet.

-----and in response to some other statements --

SHRINKAGE - it happens. Many canyoneers are very clear that when they enter that ice-cold pool, certain things get smaller. But many are not aware that in the course of using ropes, they (the ropes) also tend to get shorter. It is very hard to quantify because each rope is subject to a different environment ("history"), but it is important for canyoneers to check their rope lengths on a regular basis. My informal observation is that Imlay 100% polyester ropes tend to shrink about 5% pretty quickly, and about 10% over the life of the rope. My experience with the Canyon Pro is that it seems to shrink about 8% fairly quickly, and about 15% overall. But again, there will be significant variation even in the same rope, batch to batch, and history to history.

Tom

[SlickRock]

How can a 60 m rope be accurately measured... without introducing error?

[ratagonia]

How can a 60 m rope be accurately measured... without introducing error?

Are you asking a philosophical question, or do you want an actual answer?

There are methods available for measuring the length with minimal error, say one millimeter, but from a practical point of view, measuring to the nearest foot is good enough. Go buy yourself a 100' (non-stretch) tape measure.

http://www.amazon.com/Stanley-34-790...7+tape+measure

Not expensive - $13.00

Tie the end of the rope to a fixed object, then tie the end of the tape measure in the same way. Pull the rope out and the tape measure at the same time, make sure they have about the same arc; read off against the tape measure.

If your rope is longer than 100 feet, you can match ends and find the middle of the rope, and do the same kinda thing; multiply by two.

Tom

[harness man]

Thanks Tom (and Hank) for sharing some of your rope expertise.
Question for Tom:

One thing I like about my Imlay ropes is that the difference between brand new and broken in is much smaller, maybe 1.1:1

By this do you mean that you believe the difference in friction on a rappel device (with the same setting, weight, etc.) on a new vs. broken in 8.3mm Canyon Fire to be about 10%?
Best
Todd

[Byron]

This is like a total rope learning experience. Who knew?...at least, I didn't.

[ratagonia]

Thanks Tom (and Hank) for sharing some of your rope expertise.
Question for Tom:
By this do you mean that you believe the difference in friction on a rappel device (with the same setting, weight, etc.) on a new vs. broken in 8.3mm Canyon Fire to be about 10%?
Best
Todd

Exactly.

I am hoping to make some actual measurements when I get some instrumentation set up. Don't hold your breath.

Tom

[harness man]

That is interesting, because my personal (limited to two new ropes) experience with 8.3mm Canyon Fire has been that when BRAND new
the amount of effort to hang on to the brake hand is dramatically increased, if using the same friction setting as for a 'broken in' Canyon fire.
This would be rappelling single line, using ATS and also CRITR.
I found this 'super-fast' condition only lasted a few rappels.
This is NOT a criticism- I really LIKE the Canyon fire, and wish the new condition could stay that way- it runs like a charm on the CRITR (on a higher friction setting when new!).
Perhaps other Canyon fire users have comments about their experiences with the difference in friction from new/broken in?
But for me, (and several friends who use it) the Canyon fire out of the box: its a rocket!
Best,
Todd

[harness man]

Continuing...the Canyon Fire is crazy fast out of the box (in my experience). ZION PRO is also crazy fast out of the box, having a polyester sheath (as opposed to technora which has more inherent friction), and a smaller diameter (8mm) than other brands, it runs even a little faster than new Canyon Fire.
So, regardless of brand, it is IMPORTANT to anticipate this by setting up additional friction BEFORE you step off the edge on a brand new rope.
And be prepared to ADD friction as you go, especially on long drops where the friction added by the rope weight will decrease as you travel further along it.
This is one reason we created the CRITR.
Whether or not you feel that the CRITR is the 'pinnacle of perfection', it does have a key feature missing from Eights, Piranas, ATSs, and ATCs:
BIG honkin' arms and legs you can wrap the rope around in a panic!
So we believe our 'beloved child' is inherently safer as a rappel device- and we don't mind saying so.
One of the benefits of the increased control afforded by the CRITR is that people (especially heavier people) become more comfortable on skinnier ropes. Hence, increased sales of ropes that have reputations of being scary, fast ropes like the Canyon Fire and Zion Pro
Rope again-
The ZION PRO does have a dyneema core, which is a significantly more slippery material than polyester or nylon (but NOT a friction coefficient of ZERO).
Why use it for core material? It makes a lighter, more compact, and stronger rope that absorbs very little water.
Dyneema / Spectra has incredible strength per weight, and also amazing TENACITY.
This helps give the ZION PRO a very high breaking strength of 5,000 lbs and a core that will keep most of that strength as the rope ages.
Having manufactured other products with Spectra/Dyneema for over a decade, and after break testing new and old samples of the ZION PRO while CRITR testing, we know that it is incredibly tough and durable over the life of the rope.
What we do NOT have definitive testing for (other than one sample), is what happens to other brand's tensile properties as they age.....