Zion guiding

[boryaa]

I've heard that guiding in Zion is not allowed. Canyoneering nor rock climbing. I'm curious to why this is? I don't know if this was posted before but would appreciate any info, thanks.

[Iceaxe]

You are correct. Commercial guiding is not allowed inside Zion NP. Every National Park is allowed to set their own rules in regards to guiding. Zion NP has decided that commercial guiding is not in the best interest of the park and its goals or objectives.

We can argue the merits but personally I'm extremely happy Zion does not allow guiding. The resources in Zion are already extremely limited, heavily permitted and regulated. As a privateer I would hate to be forced to compete for limited permits against commercial guides making a profit from the park I own as a US citizen.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bootboy]

^^^THIS^^^

I abhor commercially guided climbing and canyoneering, with VERY few exceptions.

It ranks among the worst forms of exploitation in my mind and I'd love to see it banned in other national parks (I'm looking at you Grand Teton). Selling wilderness to people who haven't got the true interest enough to become passionate and competent. Advanced babysitting.


LNT

[Iceaxe]

I'd love to see it banned in other national parks (I'm looking at you Grand Teton)

If I understand things correctly Teton doesn't have a real choice as the guide services were established before Teton became a National Park. To get rid of Teton guides the NP Service would be forced to buy the two companies and they would demand a lot of coin as they are both long established and highly profitable.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Scott P]

I agree that guiding isn't a good idea in Zion because of a shortage of permits.

It ranks among the worst forms of exploitation in my mind and I'd love to see it banned in other national parks (I'm looking at you Grand Teton). Selling wilderness to people who haven't got the true interest enough to become passionate and competent. Advanced babysitting.

As Shane pointed out a few times, almost everyone who climbs has been guided. You may not have paid for it, but when it comes to technical terrain, almost everyone has had a guide, parent, friend, teacher, or partner, to show him/her the ropes.

[Bootboy]

I agree that guiding isn't a good idea in Zion because of a shortage of permits.



As Shane pointed out a few times, almost everyone who climbs has been guided. You may not have paid for it, but when it comes to technical terrain, almost everyone has had a guide, parent, friend, teacher, or partner, to show him/her the ropes.

It's the money that I hate. You're right, I was shown some neat places. But my family/friends weren't in it for the money. That's my whole point.


LNT

[Scott P]

Most guides aren't in it for the money. Most of the time it seems that they just want to make a living doing something that is actually enjoyable.

I did guide (backpacking) for a couple of summers (Uinta Mountains). I made what would be the equivalent of about $622 a month in today's wages/2014 dollars. Of course technical guides make more. I still don't know any rich guides, but maybe some exist out there.

If I didn't have a family support, I only wish I could go guide and show some people some cool places. It wouldn't be in Zion though, because I agree that it isn't a good idea to guide there.

I actually did think about buying this business:

http://www.extremedominica.com/

On the other hand, I don't think I could do it since my wife has heart problems and will need a surgery sometime in the near(?) future and I have two kids.

[Iceaxe]

I still don't know any rich guides, but maybe some exist out there.

I know a couple rich guides, depending on how you want to define rich. Or to put it better I know a couple guides that live in large houses, drive nice cars and make a very comfortable living.

Most guides aren't in it for the money. Most of the time it seems that they just want to make a living doing something that is actually enjoyable.

This is actually why most guides (and most people) are not rich. The money is not as important as reaching a comfortable place in life. Making a lot of money at anything requires extremely hard work, long hours, perseverance and high stress, usually one of those items excludes many from banking major coin.

[mzamp]

As Shane pointed out a few times, almost everyone who climbs has been guided. You may not have paid for it, but when it comes to technical terrain, almost everyone has had a guide, parent, friend, teacher, or partner, to show him/her the ropes.

Having a mentor or taking an instructional class is not the same (at least for this discussion) as being guided.

[Scott P]

Having a mentor or taking an instructional class is not the same (at least for this discussion) as being guided.

Actually it is, only you usually don't pay for it.

[hank moon]

I once shared some of the anti-guiding sentiment expressed in this thread...until I became a guide.

Whatever you think of guiding, unless you have actually done it for a living, you don't really know what it is about.

You just think you do*.

The above generally holds true whenever strong opinion is combined with weak knowledge.




* Just as I don't know what being a doctor or lawyer is really about, though I often judge those professions.

[Iceaxe]

Having a mentor or taking an instructional class is not the same (at least for this discussion) as being guided.

I disagree... It's all about "Getting some skills"... I fail to see how paying to get the skills is any better or worse than any of the other methods. In fact I'll argue a professional guide has many advantages over your brother/friend/uncle....



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Bootboy]

I once shared some of the anti-guiding sentiment expressed in this thread...until I became a guide.

Whatever you think of guiding, unless you have actually done it for a living, you don't really know what it is about.

You just think you do*.

The above generally holds true whenever strong opinion is combined with weak knowledge.




* Just as I don't know what being a doctor or lawyer is really about, though I often judge those professions.

I don't need to know what it's about. I don't pretend to know anything more than what I do. I know that I disagree with people buying their way into these places. I think it's a borderline unethical way to make a living.

Of course they don't do it to get rich, Scott.

I just believe that wilderness should not be a business. In my mind, it's antithetical to the philosophy that is the concept of American wilderness. That's it.


LNT

[Byron]

I don't mind the Guide Thing at all. The way I see it, most of them are teaching the noobs how to do it right...without tearing things up in a self learning process. Including themselves.

Sure, there's some shyster types out there, but those exist everywhere, in everything.

[moab mark]

^^^THIS^^^

I abhor commercially guided climbing and canyoneering, with VERY few exceptions.

It ranks among the worst forms of exploitation in my mind and I'd love to see it banned in other national parks (I'm looking at you Grand Teton). Selling wilderness to people who haven't got the true interest enough to become passionate and competent. Advanced babysitting.


LNT

So what are the guides doing in Teton Nat Park that has your panties in a wad?

[qedcook]

It's the money that I hate.

That explains a lot!

[Brian in SLC]

I once shared some of the anti-guiding sentiment expressed in this thread...until I became a guide.

Whatever you think of guiding, unless you have actually done it for a living, you don't really know what it is about.

You just think you do*.

The above generally holds true whenever strong opinion is combined with weak knowledge.

* Just as I don't know what being a doctor or lawyer is really about, though I often judge those professions.

Nor are you a polititian...along your same lines of thought...ha ha.

[Brian in SLC]

So what are the guides doing in Teton Nat Park that has your panties in a wad?

Went to an AAC meeting held at Snowbird here in Utah a few years ago. For better or worse (ha ha), carpooled with a friend who'd recently written a scathing letter to the Park Service in the Tetons railing about one of the guide services up there. Well...the guide service got taken to task for some of their behavior, it seems. We walk into the meeting, and, the first person we see and have contact with is an owner of said guide service. The pleasantries went like this: "Alan, fu#k you."

Musta been a great letter.

I've climbed in the Tetons a bunch (over 60 ascents of at least 50 different routes, not counting attempts, over nearly 30 years). Have friends who guide and own the guide services up there. I've had "issues" on a very few occasions. Heard plenty of stories. Been with a few guides up there on their off days. Been there when guides have died. So, I could add plenty of juice to the guide conversation in the Tetons. For the most part, they really don't bother me much. Always let me play through. And, they have their gigs wired. Usually a smile and a howdy for the most part.

One thing that's nice in the Tetons, is, that climbers don't need permits to climb. Just over night camping. And, the guide services have their own lodging spots already designated, so, they don't eat up quotas for camp sites.

[SRG]

This thread turns into an interesting discussion about guiding in Zion.

[Bootboy]

That explains a lot!

And just what do you think it explains?


LNT