Logistical issues with kids

[keith_b00ne]

My wife and I have recently adopted a little girl who is turning 2 years old. Prior to her, our lives revolved around mountaineering, climbing, canyoneering and backpacking. We have yet to find a way to get into the vertical world or backpack in 6 months and it's driving me BONKERS! We don't have a family to help watch her. When we go climbing, the belayer can't also watch her. When we go backpacking, we can't carry our stuff plus her, canyoneering with her in a pack doesn't sound safe. Does anyone have any suggestions? Am I forever cursed to car camping?

[Scott P]

When we go backpacking, we can't carry our stuff plus her

Try a bigger pack and go lighter if necessary. My wife used to carry our daughter, while I carried stuff for all four of us. They make expedition backpacks that will hold everything.

Am I forever cursed to car camping?

Forever? By age 2 our son was doing five miles a day. By age 3 he was doing 12 miles a day. By age 4 he was doing 14 mile days.

Stick with it and the kids will get conditioned. Be patient and make sure they walk EVERYWHERE. Getting rid of the TV really helps.

Some trip reports at ages 3:

http://www.summitpost.org/kessler-s-...attempt/170276 (First 14er attempt)

http://www.summitpost.org/two-beauti...untains/170532 (Two peaks in the Uintas)

http://www.summitpost.org/a-great-tr...-record/171487 (22 miles in two days)

A few at age 4:

http://www.summitpost.org/three-gene...-windom/208495 (one of the hardest 14ers in Colorado)

http://www.summitpost.org/a-grand-an...-canyon/253033 (one of the hardest trails in the Grand Canyon)

Age 5:

http://www.summitpost.org/a-return-t...-oxford/341216 (Colorado 14ers)

http://www.summitpost.org/father-and...in-peru/378565 (climbing in the Andes Mountains)

By age 6 he could do 12 miles in winter on snowshoes:

http://www.summitpost.org/mount-tayl...-ascent/501291

Our daughter is also a really experienced climber.

Some random trips with our daughter:

http://www.summitpost.org/mountains-...lcanoes/691015 (Jungles in Indonesia and Malaysia)

http://www.summitpost.org/welcome-to...-report/780363 (Honduras/El Salvador)

http://www.summitpost.org/the-wild-caribbean/774208 (Dominica and Puerto Rico)

Trip logs from when our daughter was 3-4 and our son was 5-6:

http://www.summitpost.org/2008-trip-log/375607

Ages 4-5 and 6-7:

http://www.summitpost.org/2009-trip-log/477971

Ages 5-6 and 7-8:

http://www.summitpost.org/2010-trip-log/590857

Ages 6-7 and 8-9:

http://www.summitpost.org/2011-trip-log/690759

Ages 7-8 and 9-10:

http://www.summitpost.org/2012-trip-log/770043

Ages 8-9 and 10-11:

http://www.summitpost.org/2013-trip-log/833850

Ages 9-10 and 11-12:

http://www.summitpost.org/2014-trip-log/884198

Anyway, you get the idea. Just be patient and do lots and lots of conditioning.

My son just turned 12 Saturday. He can climb 5.11 (which is harder than I can climb). My nine year old daughter can climb 5.9. My 13 year old son Kessler has climbed 431 mountains on six continents, including in the Andes, Himalaya, etc. My daughter just turned 10 on May 4 and has climbed 260 mountains. Both do lots of canyoneering and have even named some of the now popular canyons and some off the radar. My son is great with keeper potholes.

It just takes patience and conditioning, nothing more. Where there is a will there is a way. Sadly, many kids don't get to do serious climbing only because their parents are lazy or lack motivation. Starting kids early is best and the earlier the better.

As far as things like belaying go, yeah, you may have to give that up for a while. Still, there are many other things that you can do.

Anyway, we have many trip reports, but here are a few of the more recent.

Here is our trip from the Andes last month:

http://www.summitpost.org/adventures...-sequel/894764

Winter mountaineering on Colorado 13ers last February:

http://www.summitpost.org/winter-mou...as-pass/889205

Possible first descent of a canyon in Canyonlands:

http://www.summitpost.org/canyoneeri...onlands/890056

Latest trip to the Himalaya:

http://www.summitpost.org/a-return-t...imalaya/838418

Anyway, if you want to see some of the mountains the kids have climbed, many are listed on their SP profiles (scroll down to summitlogs):

http://www.summitpost.org/users/kessler/18566

http://www.summitpost.org/users/shaylee/44238

Anyway, good luck and have faith. I wish you all many adventures in the future. I hope you enjoy some of the above trip reports and photos.

[Nordschleife]

Scott, i always love reading your trip reports and your kids rock. Great parenting.

[brettyb]

Scott, I love reading your accounts, but am always left wondering how you have the time and money to do so much...I just can't fathom it.

[Rob L]

Here is our trip from the Andes last month:

http://www.summitpost.org/adventures-in-peru-the-sequel/894764.

(Scott's post heavily snipped my me).

My word Scott, and as I may have said before, you have a very obliging employer, wife, children and timescale (not necessarily in that order)

That's a lovely trip report!

[Scott P]

Scott, I love reading your accounts, but am always left wondering how you have the time and money to do so much...I just can't fathom it.

Great question, but we probably don't have as much time off and money as people think. We do fine, but we're not overly rich or well endowed with time.

I currently get 96 hours of vacation, plus two floating holidays (at my previous job I used to average well over 80 hours a week at work in summer [117 in a week was my record], but then we got the winters off to compensate. I currently make $63K a year. Quite good, but we're not super rich. My wife works two jobs, one for $9 an hour at McDonalds and one for about $11.50 and hour at the school.

We do a lot of trips because we don't do other things people occupy their time with and money with; i.e., we don't have TV, we don't go to movies very often, we seldom go out to eat, we've never been to a concert, I've never even watched a pro sporting event save once when I was in cub scouts. I've never watched a sporting event on TV, neither has anyone else in our family.

A lot of hikes we do are in the evenings after work, plus we do something every weekend. We spend all holidays in the outdoors, including Christmas, New Years, Thanksgiving, etc. To save money we also keep the house at 60F in the winter and we have no air conditioning. We have also avoiding getting into excessive debt. We've never spent money on alcohol or a cigarette either; this saves money.

We put all of our bills, shopping, and expenses on our credit card, but pay off the full balance every month. Having all those bills and expenses really allows us to rack up the miles. By always booking 330 days in advance, we can get the discount miles fares. It is true that we spend $600 round trip to get to Peru, but we usually pay much less and that was the first time in a few years that we spent over $100 on a plane ticket.

Here are the tickets for our next trip:



Notice that we're only paying $60.10 a person for a plane tickets.

Most places we travel to are cheap as well. It's easy to find a hotel in Central or South America for $5-$15. Camping usually cost nothing. Neither does hiking. If you're only paying $60.10 for plane tickets, it really isn't hard to do a trip for really cheap. It's much cheaper for us to go to some place like Guatemala than it is to go to Disneyland or something. You can easily do a trip to somewhere like Central or South America for a few hundred dollars a person.

Even with travelling, we still have money for a few extra things like giving to charities (humanitarian aid, church, etc.) and offsetting are carbon footprint, etc.

[jman]

Great question, but we probably don't have as much time off and money as people think. We do fine, but we're not overly rich or well endowed with time.

I currently get 96 hours of vacation, plus two floating holidays (at my previous job I used to average well over 80 hours a week at work in summer [117 in a week was my record], but then we got the winters off to compensate. I currently make $63K a year. Quite good, but we're not super rich. My wife works two jobs, one for $9 an hour at McDonalds and one for about $11.50 and hour at the school.

We do a lot of trips because we don't do other things people occupy their time with and money with; i.e., we don't have TV, we don't go to movies very often, we seldom go out to eat, we've never been to a concert, I've never even watched a pro sporting event save once when I was in cub scouts. I've never watched a sporting event on TV, neither has anyone else in our family.

A lot of hikes we do are in the evenings after work, plus we do something every weekend. We spend all holidays in the outdoors, including Christmas, New Years, Thanksgiving, etc. To save money we also keep the house at 60F in the winter and we have no air conditioning. We have also avoiding getting into excessive debt. We've never spent money on alcohol or a cigarette either; this saves money.

We put all of our bills, shopping, and expenses on our credit card, but pay off the full balance every month. Having all those bills and expenses really allows us to rack up the miles. By always booking 330 days in advance, we can get the discount miles fares. It is true that we spend $600 round trip to get to Peru, but we usually pay much less and that was the first time in a few years that we spent over $100 on a plane ticket.

Here are the tickets for our next trip:



Notice that we're only paying $60.10 a person for a plane tickets.

Most places we travel to our cheap as well. It's easy to find a hotel in Central or South America for $5-$15. Camping usually cost nothing. Neither does hiking. If you're only paying $60.10 for plane tickets, it really isn't hard to do a trip for really cheap. It's much cheaper for us to go to some place like Guatemala than it is to go to Disneyland or something. You can easily do a trip to somewhere like Central or South America for a few hundred dollars a person.

Even with travelling, we still have money for a few extra things like giving to charities (humanitarian aid, church, etc.) and offsetting are carbon footprint, etc.

Wow, talk about a motivational post! :)

[Tystevens]

While we are not as ambitious as Scott P, our kids (4 between 13 mo - 9 yrs old) have done more hikes and seen more Utah landmarks than most adults I know. Ok, the 13 mo old is just getting started, but ...

Just remember that they grow and it gets better (from a recreational standpoint!). Sure, 'real' canyoneering may be out for a few years, but there is a lot of stuff you can do with a kid and you both will enjoy it. Actually, it is even more fun for me watching them grow and learn to love being outside -- the kids add a new layer of enjoyment to the activities for me.

[Bluff-Canyoneer]

Scott:
What credit card do you use that allows the miles to be used on various airlines?

[Scott P]

What credit card do you use that allows the miles to be used on various airlines?

I have the Chase MileagePlus Select Visa card. Unfortunately, the newer Explorer card (I still have the old one) doesn't give quite as many miles.

You don't have to fly United (ee only chose United because Denver is a hub city for United and United is the main airport flying out of Steamboat/Hayden, which is near where we live), only anything associated with Star Alliance or United. For example, last free tickets we flew United and Copa. The next free tickets, we're flying United and Lineas Aereas Costaricenes, so there are a lot of airlines in Star Alliance.

Here's a list of airlines we can use our free tickets on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Alliance

Anyway, I get 2 miles for every dollar spent for gas, groceries, and all other everyday purchases. I get three miles for anything associated with United, including hotels and shopping. I get one mile for every other purchase that doesn't fit in those categories, including putting all of our bills on them. You also get miles on your anniversary date that you got the card. It all does add up (December's statement to show the YTD):



On the discounted fares, the above is enough for three tickets to Central America, for example. It is almost enough for two to Europe or two to three to South America. Going to somewhere like Africa is 80,000 miles though.

There are catches though.

#1: In order to get most discount tickets for desirable dates, you have to book 330 days in advance, or close to that far in advance. Otherwise you will pay the full amount (which is double the discount rate). Booking in advance isn't a problem for me though. I always get the discounted fares, especially since I have a bunch of alternate destinations in mind just in case the ones for choice #1 aren't available.

#2: You had better make d@#$ well sure that you pay off the full balance every month. No matter what. Otherwise, the interest on such cards is exorbitant.

Alas though, the new card available (Explorer) doesn't have as many miles as ours does. I believe you get 1 mile for all purchases and 2 miles for United purchases. I don't know if you get the anniversary miles either. It's a good thing we have the old card.

Anyway, if you really wanted to do this, I'd check several airline's cards out there.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Scott, you and your family have been an inspiration to me and mine since I became a bogleyite.

But I can't help but wonder how you deal with your kids and all the electronic crap that kids these days can't seem to live without. Do your kids have smart phones, video games, ipods, etc. and if they do, how do you get them away from all that on a consistent basis?

My 13 year old is feeling like an outcast because he's the only one in his church group that doesn't have his own smart phone or any cell phone for that matter. I'm taking my 11 year old scouts camping tomorrow and when we went over the list of things they couldn't bring (phones, ipods, ipads, etc), I actually had 2 or 3 say that they didn't want to go. Crazy world we live in.

[blueeyes]

Sandstone neither of my kids have a smartphone. They do have a cell but that is for MY convenience. Any electronic device they have they bought on their own. I don't have TV connection and about a year ago when I bought my smartphone I disconnected the internet service. When they need it for school we go to the library. They can live without and if they want internet service at home I have told them they are welcome to pay for it. Mine are 18 and 14.

Scott thanks for your post. It is inspiring!

I started camping, hiking, mountain biking and what not with my kids 10 years ago by myself and a few times before that with their dad. It is a challenge when they are young. You have to adjust to them and make it fun or they grumble (more so when they are older than younger) I found going with others with kids about their age made it easier for me. The kids entertained each other. It was worth all of the work. Both of them love being outdoors. Both are also voracious readers because we haven't had TV connection for about 7 years. We do watch movies. But making the library a regular part of their existence and no TV plus outdoors, keeps their use to electronics to a minimum.



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[Scott P]

But I can't help but wonder how you deal with your kids and all the electronic crap that kids these days can't seem to live without. Do your kids have smart phones, video games, ipods, etc. and if they do, how do you get them away from all that on a consistent basis?

We don't have TV, so that's one electronic thing we can scratch off. My wife and I have cell phones, but the kids do not have their own. They can use it since someone has to show the parent's how to use them.

They have a DS that they can play video games in the car only while on the way to the mountains and canyons. They don't play it at home. They don't have an ipod.

They don't seem to mind being away from electronics that much.

At home they prefer to play with things like Nerf guns and Legos rather than video games anyway. Our son has quite the collection of Nerf guns, enough to share with the rest of the kids on our street.

[Tystevens]

But I can't help but wonder how you deal with your kids and all the electronic crap that kids these days can't seem to live without. Do your kids have smart phones, video games, ipods, etc. and if they do, how do you get them away from all that on a consistent basis?

They only can't live without them if you have no rules pertaining to them. My kids have always had very strict/regulated tv/video/computer time, and at this point, they know the limits, don't whine or fuss about it, and have found plenty of other things to do. It really is a non-issue in our house at this point.

I am a leader in our church's young men's group for about 5 consecutive years now, and I'm often asking about their respective rules for electronic devices. The ones who brag about being able to play video games or watch tv or use their ipods/phones whenever they want are the ones who cannot go a campout or even a 1 hr church meeting without it. These are often the same ones who slowly drift away from participating in the activities as they get older.

The others who seem to have rules in their homes do not complain about leaving the devices home for a campout, and incidentally, are more likely to participate and remain active in the group as they get older.

[jman]

They only can't live without them if you have no rules pertaining to them. My kids have always had very strict/regulated tv/video/computer time, and at this point, they know the limits, don't whine or fuss about it, and have found plenty of other things to do. It really is a non-issue in our house at this point.

I am a leader in our church's young men's group for about 5 consecutive years now, and I'm often asking about their respective rules for electronic devices. The ones who brag about being able to play video games or watch tv or use their ipods/phones whenever they want are the ones who cannot go a campout or even a 1 hr church meeting without it. These are often the same ones who slowly drift away from participating in the activities as they get older.

The others who seem to have rules in their homes do not complain about leaving the devices home for a campout, and incidentally, are more likely to participate and remain active in the group as they get older.

That's a wise observation. I've never thought of it like that.

[keith_b00ne]

@ Scott P

5 miles a day for a 2 year old is very good. I have a 1 1/2 year old and she can't cover 2 miles in a day. We end up rotating her walking, us carrying, her playing in the rocks, us carrying her, then maybe she will walk again, followed by a nap.

[brettyb]

Sorry for the threadjack OP. Best of luck it getting out there again. It will happen, it's just a lot more work with kids. And I have special admiration for those who give the gift of a home to a child. Adoption takes a special kind of love, and I have tremendous respect for those who do so.

To Scott, thanks so much for your very frank discussion of your situation (including your salary even!). I can see how you could get the finances to work...it's more the time portion that baffles me. How on earth do you have time to plan and undertake all these activities? I understand that many countries are dirt cheap to travel in by western standards, but all these trips require great amounts of planning, and coordination with work and school schedules. Just maintaining gear for growing kids is time consuming.

I have great respect for the fact that you don't have a TV. I do many or most of the money saving tips you do...but, wow, furnace at 60F in winter, that's hardcore.

But it all comes back to time for me...seems I am always behind on yard maintenance, car maintenance, general organization, etc...and have a very hard time planning trips with the family, especially camping trips, which I find take far longer to pack and unpack from. You manage an astounding volume of outdoor adventures, maintain a full time professional job, and yet find ample time to document your activities, extensively, online. It is truly impressive. Do you ever sleep?