4/12/14 - Family Rescued from Sandthrax after 3 Days

[Scott P]

I do not place blame on anyone but myself.

Yes, Caverknight, I respect you for that (most of us have made mistakes in canyons as well). It seems as if Lucach was putting some of the blame on the website, or claiming that there was no warning.

Do we all need 4-5 adult people in every trip like they recommend for safety?

Nah, just at least two if there are kids along and they can't get out by themselves if an emergency arises (if they can navigate themselves; no need for an extra adult). At least that's my own opinion.

PS, I do get flack for taking my kids in some places as well.

[Iceaxe]

Your map doesn't show the ridge between Blarney and Leprechaun being used either.

You better look at my map again.... that red line with the UP arrow to the left of west fork is an up access that is pretty fun.

If you read my beta you will also note the beta clears up the East Fork (aka Right Fork) issue. My maps are made to be used with the written description. Using only the map is not a great idea.

[Scott P]

You better look at my map again.... that red line with the UP arrow to the left of west fork is an up access that is pretty fun.

That's the route I was speaking of here, and is a fun route:

or the routes go up Leprechaun nearly a mile before exiting the canyon and following the rim around to the various forks.

I've already done that route twice. Your, Tom's, and Kelsey's route all show that route as starting well up the Leprechaun drainage (almost a mile) rather than following the ridge up from the highway between the two canyons. If you want the East Fork via that route, you know that you should cross the other drainage first. Also, if you are looking for that route, since it starts well up the drainage, even if you were lost and in the wrong drainage (say Sandthrax or Blarney), it would be evident fairly early.

[ratagonia]

That's the route I was speaking of here, and is a fun route:

or the routes go up Leprechaun nearly a mile before exiting the canyon and following the rim around to the various forks.

I've already done that route twice. Your, Tom's, and Kelsey's route all show that route as starting well up the Leprechaun drainage (almost a mile) rather than following the ridge up from the highway between the two canyons. If you want the East Fork via that route, you know that you should cross the other drainage first. Also, if you are looking for that route, since it starts well up the drainage, even if you were lost and in the wrong drainage (say Sandthrax or Blarney), it would be evident fairly early.

Not sure why this horse continues to be beaten... it's dead, Jim.

Tom

[lucach]

it seems as though you are blaming the website

I know Tom Jones, he is a wonderful guy that has done and keeps doing wonderful things for the community... I do really wish he had deep pockets! Guys like him deserve it.
I also know Jason, he is a good guy that will take responsibility for his mistakes and will ever only have good words for free sites like CanyoneeringUSA.

I was playing with the fact this is America, the land where people never takes responsibility for their own mistakes and gratuitously sue others.
It is also the land where everyone openly criticize the mistakes of others while hiding all their (equally stupid) mistakes. Let's face the truth, shall we?
Those that say "I never went down the wrong canyon" or "I never made a mistake" is probably because you've always done easy stuff or following someone else.
If you are really as hardcore as you think you are or had really done some serious stuff you would know shit happens... shit happens all the time!
I went down the wrong turn or made mistakes MANY times, mostly with minimal consequences. Jason just had worst luck than I ever did. That's all.

Jason, if you read this, I will tell you about one of the guys that has been posting critic statements about you...
I am not going to tell you his name, he is considered by many as an expert, and I do not want to ruin his reputation...
I have seen this guy bolt 100ft drops with one single bolt and have newbies rappel down it, claiming "he opened the canyon" (when it had already been descended).
I have seen this guy go around advising newbies to do a dangerous toboggan (50% of the time people gets injured) telling them "you will be just fine".
You will never hear about any of the mishaps on any of his trips (he himself had to be rescued in Heaps) because has all the witnesses take an oath of silence.
But whenever he finds another group in distress he will give them a Samsplint and claim he rescued them (even when victim extracted by helicopter within an hour).

Jason, I ask you to just ignore all the critiques from hypocrites like this guy...you made a simple mistake like many of us, just had worse luck.
Kudos to you, to Tom Jones and to all the cool guys who have the courage to make their mistakes public so others can learn from them!

[mzamp]

If you read my beta you will also note the beta clears up the East Fork (aka Right Fork) issue. My maps are made to be used with the written description. Using only the map is not a great idea.

I want to be a beta master like you , but unfortunately I am dyslexic and got it reversed.

Those that say "I never went down the wrong canyon" ...

Nope - never has happened. And yes I lead almost all my trips and have done many canyons with extreme navigation. Now making mistakes is another story all together.

[Scott P]

I know Tom Jones, he is a wonderful guy that has done and keeps doing wonderful things for the community... I do really wish he had deep pockets! Guys like him deserve it.

I guess some of the message was missed that was meant to be tongue in cheek. It did sound like some blame was being put on the website/beta, but now that you explain more, it makes more sense. I didn't know you were joking about the deep pocket thing and that you knew Tom. I really misunderstood your post.

I hope that you see that my only intention was to defend the beta rather than to attack anyone.

Those that say "I never went down the wrong canyon" or "I never made a mistake" is probably because you've always done easy stuff or following someone else.

I think everyone makes mistakes, especially early on. Personally, I've never went down the wrong canyon, at least not unintentionally, but I know we made some big mistakes. To my disdain, some of them were talked about by others for years or decades afterward.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant.

Those are some interesting stories about the other person, but thanks for not calling him out on the forum. I don't know who it is and don't care to.

[Mountaineer]

...Kudos ...to all the cool guys who have the courage to make their mistakes public so others can learn from them!

Yes, agree. Kudos to those that post up what they learn, ask questions, and even comment. Ironically you learn even more when you ask the question and get "poked" at a bit. Better to be critiqued, then not managing the risk when you are in the canyon properly.

[Slot Machine]

Those are some interesting stories about the other person, but thanks for not calling him out on the forum. I don't know who it is and don't care to.

*disgusted, throws popcorn at computer monitor*

[Iceaxe]

Play in the canyons long enough and sooner or later you'll find its your turn in the barrel.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

Sure am glad I NEVER make mistakes like that (other than MIDDLE LEP for West Lep, but that was a while ago).

Instead, I make mistakes like this:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/adventure-dead-eye-dick-zion-national-park-canyoneering-4-17-2014/

Tom