BLM controversy in Southern Utah

[Iceaxe]

BUT--from a law enforcement prospective, at this rally, why was this zone rule not enforced?

Best I can tell law enforcement has been totally worthless at enforcing any rules or law that have to do with this issue.

The only smart thing law enforcement has done is withdraw, where they will now regroup and attack this through another less visable avenue.

[oldno7]

Best I can tell law enforcement has been totally worthless at enforcing any rules or law that have to do with this issue.

The only smart thing law enforcement has done is withdraw, where they will now regroup and attack this through another less visable avenue.

Completely agree......

But it would be less than honest to think the group of citizens being armed didn't play a part in the blm not enforcing "their"

1st amendment cage....

[cchoc]

You're right, it was only a First Amendment issue, the rest of the Bill of Rights should be abolished.

Good point.....

It is what it is and will be interpreted by both sides to mean something completely different, no one can stop that process.

I once heard a guy say something along the lines of--the Bill of Rights isn't an al la carte menu.

Carry on..........

These zones are bullshit, of course, but have been around for years; although they didn't get used much until Shrub's administration. There is a line between free speech and inciting to riot, though, and that line is set by the folks with tear gas - as I learned some years back in the Nixon and Johnson years.

[Sombeech]

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[cchoc]

Now there's an idea, gather all the militia together for one last detonation.

[Sombeech]

[deagol]

I've been working with real estate title issues for many years now and have learned something about controversies like this. Of course, there are 2 sides to every story, but title is easily traceable and if he lost in court twice, that pretty much should put the nail in the coffin of his claim. The judiciary is not shy in ruling against the government, so I would have to put stock in their ruling. Also, a big lesson to learn RE the pissed off ranchers: being angry doesn't necessarily mean you are "in the right". None of this applies to the confrontation between the protesters and BLM, but if they group was high on emotion (righteous indignation and anger) I am guessing it escalated to this point in steps based on the stubbornness of the ranchers to comply with both court orders. The problem could be that the ranchers truly believe they were right, but they may, in fact, be wrong (if we trust the court's rulings). People used to be sure the Earth was flat.

[oldno7]

Why Cliven Bundy Is Not Wrong- From A Fellow Rancher

There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher’s grazing permit it says the following: “You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due.” The “mandatory” terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this “contract” agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher’s permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow – - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are “suspended,” but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of “suspended” AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single-handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero.

-Kena Lytle Gloeckner

[oldno7]

....

[cchoc]

Why Cliven Bundy Is Not Wrong- From A Fellow Rancher

There have been a lot of people criticizing Clive Bundy because he did not pay his grazing fees for 20 years. The public is also probably wondering why so many other cowboys are supporting Mr. Bundy even though they paid their fees and Clive did not. What you people probably do not realize is that on every rancher’s grazing permit it says the following: “You are authorized to make grazing use of the lands, under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Land Management and covered by this grazing permit, upon your acceptance of the terms and conditions of this grazing permit and payment of grazing fees when due.” The “mandatory” terms and conditions go on to list the allotment, the number and kind of livestock to be grazed, when the permit begins and ends, the number of active or suspended AUMs (animal units per month), etc. The terms and conditions also list specific requirements such as where salt or mineral supplements can be located, maximum allowable use of forage levels (40% of annual growth), etc., and include a lot more stringent policies that must be adhered to. Every rancher must sign this “contract” agreeing to abide by the TERMS AND CONDITIONS before he or she can make payment. In the early 90s, the BLM went on a frenzy and drastically cut almost every rancher’s permit because of this desert tortoise issue, even though all of us ranchers knew that cow and desert tortoise had co-existed for a hundred+ years. As an example, a family friend had his permit cut by 90%. For those of you who are non ranchers, that would be equated to getting your paycheck cut 90%. In 1976 there were approximately 52 ranching permittees in this area of Nevada. Presently, there are 3. Most of these people lost their livelihoods because of the actions of the BLM. Clive Bundy was one of these people who received extremely unfair and unreasonable TERMS AND CONDITIONS. Keep in mind that Mr. Bundy was required to sign this contract before he was allowed to pay. Had Clive signed on the dotted line, he would have, in essence, signed his very livelihood away. And so Mr. Bundy took a stand, not only for himself, but for all of us. He refused to be destroyed by a tyrannical federal entity and to have his American liberties and freedoms taken away. Also keep in mind that all ranchers financially paid dearly for the forage rights those permits allow – - not rights to the land, but rights to use the forage that grows on that land. Many of these AUMS are water based, meaning that the rancher also has a vested right (state owned, not federal) to the waters that adjoin the lands and allow the livestock to drink. These water rights were also purchased at a great price. If a rancher cannot show beneficial use of the water (he must have the appropriate number of livestock that drinks and uses that water), then he loses that water right. Usually water rights and forage rights go hand in hand. Contrary to what the BLM is telling you, they NEVER compensate a rancher for the AUMs they take away. Most times, they tell ranchers that their AUMS are “suspended,” but not removed. Unfortunately, my family has thousands of “suspended” AUMs that will probably never be returned. And so, even though these ranchers throughout the course of a hundred years invested thousands(and perhaps millions) of dollars and sacrificed along the way to obtain these rights through purchase from others, at a whim the government can take everything away with the stroke of a pen. This is the very thing that Clive Bundy single-handedly took a stand against. Thank you, Clive, from a rancher who considers you a hero.

-Kena Lytle Gloeckner

So a Mormon rancher with government issues thinks another Mormon rancher with government issues is a hero? Amazing.

Another point of view from the commie pinko side: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/0...ist-lawbreaker

[oldno7]

Not sure were Mormon plays into this?

But the key point here IS---obama lost his $20(so far)

[cchoc]

Not sure were Mormon plays into this?

But the key point here IS---obama lost his $20(so far)

The fact that they belong to the same church makes them more likely to sympathize with each other; could be Catholic, Jewish, Baptist - but they are Mormons so that's the word I used.

I didn't see a timetable on the imagined bet, either, so I doubt any money has changed hands at this point.

[oldno7]

The fact that they belong to the same church makes them more likely to sympathize with each other; could be Catholic, Jewish, Baptist - but they are Mormons so that's the word I used.

I didn't see a timetable on the imagined bet, either, so I doubt any money has changed hands at this point.

Harry Reid is also a Mormon, so by default, he would sympathize with Bundy?

[ratagonia]

Kurt is all over it...

Yeah, I'd bet big that Reid's stinky breath is all over this thing.

What about Obama. Gotta be Obama's fault somehow.

T

[oldno7]

What about Obama. Gotta be Obama's fault somehow.

T

Wrong, Tom

We're still on Bush's term of fault.

[2065toyota]

Generally speaking, you just follow the money trail.

Cattle rancher has water rights, water is like gold.

How do you get the water rights, make it so the rancher can't use his rights which allows them to be revoked.

[Iceaxe]

This is all so stupid. the IRS should be handling this with letters, seizing accounts for non payment, liens, etc. The way they normally handle a person that has failed to pay the government for something they owe the government.


Handling this out in the open Rambo style is stupid and only exacerbates the problem.

[Sombeech]

So a Mormon rancher with government issues thinks another Mormon rancher with government issues is a hero? Amazing.

Not sure were Mormon plays into this?

The fact that they belong to the same church makes them more likely to sympathize with each other; could be Catholic, Jewish, Baptist - but they are Mormons so that's the word I used.

Harry Reid is also a Mormon, so by default, he would sympathize with Bundy?

Interesting, I didn't know being a Mormon had anything to do with it either, but then since Harry Reid is a Mormon too, maybe that debunks the theory. oops

[oldno7]

Interesting, I didn't know being a Mormon had anything to do with it either, but then since Harry Reid is a Mormon too, maybe that debunks the theory. oops

Citizen--all you need to know is harry reid is Mormon and does not approve of AC/DC.

You can figure the rest out from there

[oldno7]

Citizen--all you need to know is harry reid is Mormon and does not approve of AC/DC.

You can figure the rest out from there

Oh yea, I forgot to add--If you are evil enough to own a Gibson guitar--well, Guantanamo is your future residence.

(some might need to google the relevance)