Newb question - Non-locking biners for Z rig?

[buckeyen8ive]

Hi there, I've been lurking in the forum for a few months now and have found
lots of valuable info, so Thank You to all of the forum members.

I have, however, been combing the Interwebs looking for advice on
something with little luck - Using non-locking crabs for Z rigging (adding mid-rappel friction).

I did see a similar post, but not 100% what I was looking for.

Basically, I want a system that is fast and fool proof but safe and reliable.
If I am mid-rappel, picking up speed (and under pressure) I want to be able to run
that brake hand rope through a biner that is guaranteed unlocked.

I have started using the Rock Exotica Pirate ORCA as my leg loop biner
as I can set it unlocked, and after I open it and run my rope through, it closes and locks.
At first I thought this was the perfect biner for my needs. However, while practicing a few
times I have noticed that despite setting it to an unlocked position, it would be locked when
I went to use it, likely due to being bumped or something. I can certainly reach over and unlock it
but I'd prefer a solution that is guaranteed to work every time.

I'm currently looking at using something like the Petzl Spirit which is non-locking and
has a nice bent gate that will help the rope find the gate easier. Seems to me like the
perfect solution for a leg biner but I wanted to ask the experts first.



Now I know some of you are hardcore on locking biners only in canyons, and I've heard the merits
of that philosophy. However, plain and simple, is there any caveat to what I'm proposing here?
I assume these kind of biners are certainly durable enough for this application aren't they?

All advice and opinions on this are welcome
and Thank You for your time.

[ratagonia]

Hi there, I've been lurking in the forums for a few months now and have found
lots of valuable info, so Thank You to the forum and all of its members.

I have, however, been combing the Interwebs looking for advice on
something with little luck - Using non-locking crabs for Z rigging (adding mid-rappel friction).

I did see a similar post, but not 100% what I was looking for.

Basically, I want a system that is fast and fool proof but safe and reliable.
If I am mid-rappel, picking up speed (and under pressure) I want to be able to run
that brake hand rope through a biner that is guaranteed unlocked.

I have started using the Rock Exotica Pirate ORCA as my leg loop biner
as I can set it unlocked and after I open it and run my rope through, it closes and locks.
At first I thought this was the perfect biner for my needs. However, while practicing a few
times I have noticed that despite setting it to an unlocked position, it would be locked when
I went to use it, likely due to being bumped or something. I can certainly reach over and unlock it
but I'd prefer a solution that is guaranteed to work every time.

I'm currently looking at using something like the Petzl Spirit which is non-locking and
has a nice bent gate that will help the rope find the gate easier. Seems to me like the
perfect solution for a leg biner but I wanted to ask the experts first.

Now I know some of you are hardcore on locking biners only in canyons, and I've heard the merits
of that philosophy. However, plain and simple, is there any caveat to what I'm proposing here?
I assume these kind of biners are certainly durable enough for this application aren't they?

All advice and opinions on this are welcome
and Thank You for your time.

I see your dilemma.

Hard to carry non-locking biners for just one use. Yes, using non-lockers is just fine for the Z-rig. However...

The Rock Exotica biners have the loosest screwgate of any biner I have used, which means they shake open or closed very easily.

So I offer two solutions:

1. Use some other brand of locking biner, that does not spin so easily. Pretty much any other brand.

2. Carry your two non-locking spirits for Z-rigging ONLY. And keep them sequestered. I would not bother with the bent-gate - the clip is not 'desperate'.

For me, I have not found it possible to do the second, so I do the first. I use BD Positron screwgates for that.

Tom

[deagol]

slightly off-topic, but was wondering if anyone else found the same as this: I don't like leg-loop biners since the leg-loop is sewn in a way where the stresses applied to it are oriented as your leg is pulling downward and don't match the direction that the biner pulls upward on it, therefore it seems to put undue stress on the stitching at the "'vertex" of the leg loop and try to pull it apart. This would be more understandable with a picture, of course..

[ratagonia]

This would be more understandable with a picture, of course..

yes it would.

Tom

[SRG]

Deagol,
Just to clarify... your concern is that with a leg loop redirect on rappel, the biner on your leg loop is oriented in such a way that it is tries to force apart the bar-tack that holds your leg loop together?
I've never thought about this before, but now that you mention it, I doubt if the leg loop is designed to be loaded in such a way.

Anyone seen this tested?
I guess the test would be to bartack a loop of webbing in an "offset" rather than "inline" manner(i understand these are knot terms and are used out of context here, it seemed like the clearest way to convey the setup. Think the difference between an inline figure eight bend and and offset figure eight bend). Then to hang it from a carabiner so the bartack is draped directly over the biner, then start hanging loads on it and measuring?
Thoughts?

EDIT: I'm not knowledgable on methods for testing this type of stuff. The above statement is just me thinking out loud(well, thinking in type).

[ratagonia]

Deagol,
Just to clarify... your concern is that with a leg loop redirect on rappel, the biner on your leg loop is oriented in such a way that it is tries to force apart the bar-tack that holds your leg loop together?
I've never thought about this before, but now that you mention it, I doubt if the leg loop is designed to be loaded in such a way.

Anyone seen this tested?
I guess the test would be to bartack a loop of webbing in an "offset" rather than "inline" manner(i understand these are knot terms and are used out of context here, it seemed like the clearest way to convey the setup. Think the difference between an inline figure eight bend and and offset figure eight bend). Then to hang it from a carabiner so the bartack is draped directly over the biner, then start hanging loads on it and measuring?
Thoughts?

EDIT: I'm not knowledgable on methods for testing this type of stuff. The above statement is just me thinking out loud(well, thinking in type).

There is a lot of variety in leg loop geometries used out on the harness market.

But, the load on the leg loop biner is not very high. Fifty pounds, perhaps? While leg loops in general hold about 10 kN or 2200 lbs.

Tom

[Slot Machine]

Basically, I want a system that is fast and fool proof but safe and reliable. If I am mid-rappel, picking up speed (and under pressure) I want to be able to run
that brake hand rope through a biner that is guaranteed unlocked.

If you suspect that you might lose control on a big rap, simply place an unscrewed biner on your legloop at the beginning of the rappel, then just leave it unscrewed. The impulse to start your rappels this way should be very rare once you get your friction preferences dialed in.

There is not much downside to your idea, just more gear to deal with. Your extra gear will get annoying soon enough.

Unsolicited advice:

Don't bother with non lockers (since they can get knocked off), or auto lockers (your canyon partners will hate them since everyone shares). Just get a bunch of quality screwgates, like the Petzl Attache.

BD screwgates are fine for climbing, but suck in canyons. They get jammed with sand very easily. In cold/muddy conditions this is a major problem. Spend the extra 2 bucks and get something better.

[hank moon]

The Rock Exotica biners have the loosest screwgate of any biner I have used, which means they shake open or closed very easily.

Tom is correct that the locking sleeve can self-unscrew more easily than other designs, but only if not properly tightened.

A unique aspect of REX's screwgate design is that the sleeve may be tightened much more firmly than other designs without risk of it seizing/jamming.

More on this issue has been discussed here:

http://canyoncollective.com/threads/...e-2#post-76121

[hank moon]

P.S. Hopefully some of the new descender designs floating around out there will eventually relegate the Z-rig to the bin of good-to-know-but-rarely-used techniques (e.g. munter rap).

All that spaghetti is very unappetizing.

[deagol]

Deagol,
Just to clarify... your concern is that with a leg loop redirect on rappel, the biner on your leg loop is oriented in such a way that it is tries to force apart the bar-tack that holds your leg loop together?
I've never thought about this before, but now that you mention it, I doubt if the leg loop is designed to be loaded in such a way.

Anyone seen this tested?
I guess the test would be to bartack a loop of webbing in an "offset" rather than "inline" manner(i understand these are knot terms and are used out of context here, it seemed like the clearest way to convey the setup. Think the difference between an inline figure eight bend and and offset figure eight bend). Then to hang it from a carabiner so the bartack is draped directly over the biner, then start hanging loads on it and measuring?
Thoughts?

EDIT: I'm not knowledgable on methods for testing this type of stuff. The above statement is just me thinking out loud(well, thinking in type).

Yes, this is what I was trying to say

[Canyonater]

Tom is correct that the locking sleeve can unscrew easily, but only if not properly tightened.

A unique aspect of REX's screwgate design is that the sleeve may be tightened much more firmly than other designs without risk of it seizing/jamming.

More on this issue has been discussed here:

http://canyoncollective.com/threads/...e-2#post-76121

Yes, Rock Exotica sleeves require slightly more tightening due to the design....for some, it may take getting accustomed to cause most people habitually avoid over-tightening for fear of the sleeve seizing. I have never had a Rock Exotica unscrew on me....

[Slot Machine]

Yes, Rock Exotica sleeves require slightly more tightening due to the design....for some, it may take getting accustomed to cause most people habitually avoid over-tightening for fear of the sleeve seizing. I have never had a Rock Exotica unscrew on me....

Not sure why everyone is talking about the Rock Exotica screwgate, when buckeye is asking about the ORCA, which is not a screwgate.

[ratagonia]

Not sure why everyone is talking about the Rock Exotica screwgate, when buckeye is asking about the ORCA, which is not a screwgate.

Good point, Mr. Slot.

Since very few of us use auto-locking carabiners for canyoneering, since they get gummed up with sand mighty quick, the fine distinctions of various versions of autolocking biners escape us.

So back to the original - yeah, that Orca which is not working for you is not going to work worse once it gets gummed up with sand.

Although it is hard to see, Mr. Slot, how this is pertinent, as he is looking for alternatives to the Orca.

Tom

[hank moon]

deleted

[Slot Machine]

Although it is hard to see, Mr. Slot, how this is pertinent, as he is looking for alternatives to the Orca.

It is pertinent because the OP did not ask anything about RE screwgates, which have been the theme of the entire thread. It seems everyone is answering a question that wasn't asked. Not trying to antagonize, just trying to veer the conversation in the direction of 'useful'.

[ratagonia]

It is pertinent because the OP did not ask anything about RE screwgates, which have been the theme of the entire thread. It seems everyone is answering a question that wasn't asked. Not trying to antagonize, just trying to veer the conversation in the direction of 'useful'.

Thank you sir Slot.

Buckeye - most canyoneers stay away from Autolocking carabiners because they get mucked up pretty fast in our sandy canyons.

Perhaps we should talk about various screw-gate locking carabiners, the ones canyoneers use mostly. (return to second post in thread).

(Fixed that for you sir Slot).

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I like the wire gate non-lockers for a Z rig. Sand don't muss them up. Easy in, and, easy out. They are under tension immediately so not really necessary to lock them, IMHO. I don't think lockers are needed to the extent I see folks carrying them for canyons.

That said, I love my autolock biners...!

Really kinda dislike the ORCA. Too fiddly.

[moab mark]

Seems like we are making this to difficult? If your going to have a leg biner already in place just clip into it before you start the rap? My experience has been if you are picking up speed it is usually pretty difficult to get stopped then clip in etc. Last few years on any rap of size I just clip in at the top, then usually go with a bit less friction on device. Makes for a nice ride and then use leg loop at bottom if necessary. If you redirect off a hook on Pirana etc. I switch the rope over to other hand to help to keep the rope from jumping off hook. By doing this the rope will ride against the rappel strand. If it does jump that will get your attention!!!!
Your mileage may vary.
Mark