Rope Bags available tomorrow

[Wasatch]

One thing I've noticed over the years. The Imlay packs are great for Zion/Moab/Swell canyons, they will last forever, probably the last pack you will ever own/buy, but in North Wash/Robbers Roost/White Roost they will not last any where near as long, they will last alot longer then most, if not all backpacks, so depending on where you head out the most determines how long your pack will last. I don't know, maybe that's why their called Imlay Canyon Gear in reference best used in Zion Canyons.

[flatiron]

One thing I've noticed over the years. The Imlay packs are great for Zion/Moab/Swell canyons, they will last forever, probably the last pack you will ever own/buy, but in North Wash/Robbers Roost/White Roost they will not last any where near as long, they will last alot longer then most, if not all backpacks, so depending on where you head out the most determines how long your pack will last.

Doesn't that pretty much apply to all gear, including the human body. NW/RR/WR chews up both and spits you out.

[harness man]

Hi Tom, and thanks for your comments. AND thanks for inventing so much canyon specific gear- we all really appreciate it.
I am glad that you see that the Canyon Werks rope bags are very different from yours. Just copying stuff is a waste of everyone's time (and is kinda mean spirited).
If we ever make any, our packs would be different also, sharing the DNA (and raw materials) of our rope bags.
Admiring the particulars of your packs is not for copying the features but an attempt to better understand the functions that are served by them. Tapping the experience of others to see what us newbies have missed.
For Desi and I, making canyoneering equipment is driven by fun, but also necessity- Rope Bags because none of our friends can find them; the CRITR rappel device because we think the current crop are confusing/unsafe; and canyon packs maybe? because the gold standard doesn't fit us.
As for the Font chosen for the Canyon Werks logo- we spent a long time finding it, and then making sure or label did NOT look anything like any other outdoor company's, especially yours!
How do you think these logos are alike?
Sincerely, Todd and Desi

[Slot Machine]

One thing I've noticed over the years. The Imlay packs are great for Zion/Moab/Swell canyons, they will last forever, probably the last pack you will ever own/buy, but in North Wash/Robbers Roost/White Roost they will not last any where near as long, they will last alot longer then most, if not all backpacks, so depending on where you head out the most determines how long your pack will last. I don't know, maybe that's why their called Imlay Canyon Gear in reference best used in Zion Canyons.

If you select the right pack for the right canyon, then the ICG packs will wear out far more slowly. Taking a Heaps pack through Middle Lep is an easy way to ruin that pack.

As for the small packs, we have a couple of Leprechaun packs that still look new, but have seen several skinny canyons (and we are hard on our gear). It will take years to wear them out.

For perspective, I wore out 4 Black Diamond Bullet packs, plus 3 lesser packs, in one year, before we invested in the ICG packs. I simply thrash my packs, not caring about cost or lifespan.

Even with my abusive style, my Kolob pack has seen 30 or 40 canyons and is holding up pretty well. I really tried to kill it when dragging it through Trachyotomy (wrong size pack for that canyon), and it will STILL last at least 10 more canyons. I'm very impressed with it.

-

Lastly, those two logos don't look anything alike. Unbiased opinion.

[ratagonia]

Not the label/logo, but the embroidery on the packs:

and I see it is not the exact same typeface (Mason Alt), but a similar one. However, easier for me to change the embroidery typeface that for you to scrap a pile of labels.

T

[Slot Machine]

Ah. Indeed, the Mason Alt embroidery does give ICG packs a signature look... You should not change that.

I vote that Harness Man changes his labels, once they are used up.

[harness man]

That is a generous comment, changing the font on your embroidery is still a big deal.
We do not like embroidery on our equipment, so our typeface is just going to live on the logo. To do embroidery on our rope bags also WOULD be weird.
As for the Canyon Werks, LLC woven label, yes that ship has already sailed, 10,000 labels worth (standard run).
I hope we are all still around when they run out.
But REALLY, do you find our font/label to be derivative?
We do not.

[ratagonia]

T
But REALLY, do you find our font/label to be derivative?
We do not.

I don't find it to be derivative, if you're using the word in the way that I am using the word, which is in such a manner as to possibly confuse the canyoneering public. But they are a little too close for my comfort and I consider it an unfortunate correlation. I don't consider it a big deal to change my typeface.

Examining my mind, I think my primary concern is that if someone knew your work and then encountered mine for the first time, that they might think mine was derivative of yours, which is not acceptable to me.

Tom

[harness man]

That seems to us to be a rather SEVERE brand aesthetic... which we kind of admire...
Segway to brand aesthetics:
Decades ago...there are rumors/legends of an awesome, creative, upstart climbing company called JRAT, which burst on the climbing scene with great climbing gear and an edgey BRAND with a rat caricature called 'Ratagonia'. JRAT/Ratagonia equipment was the BOMB (I owned a harness, chalk bag, t-shirt, and had the stickers plastered on my truck). JRAT branding was the 'climbing equipment with attitude' (Rattitude!) and 'Ratagonia' was everywhere. 'Ratagonia' was also a (hilarious) hi-jack of Patagonia's precious trademark.
Legend has it, that when Patagonia's lawyers served JRAT with a cease and desist order, that JRAT printed the order on the back of a JRAT t-shirt! (which sold like hot cakes).
Please clarify for us Ratagonia, is the legend true, and are you that rascally dude?

[hank moon]

That seems to us to be a rather SEVERE brand aesthetic... which we kind of admire...
Segway to brand aesthetics:
Decades ago...there are rumors/legends of an awesome, creative, upstart climbing company called JRAT, which burst on the climbing scene with great climbing gear and an edgey BRAND with a rat caricature called 'Ratagonia'. JRAT/Ratagonia equipment was the BOMB (I owned a harness, chalk bag, t-shirt, and had the stickers plastered on my truck). JRAT branding was the 'climbing equipment with attitude' (Rattitude!) and 'Ratagonia' was everywhere. 'Ratagonia' was also a (hilarious) hi-jack of Patagonia's precious trademark.
Legend has it, that when Patagonia's lawyers served JRAT with a cease and desist order, that JRAT printed the order on the back of a JRAT t-shirt! (which sold like hot cakes).
Please clarify for us Ratagonia, is the legend true, and are you that rascally dude?

Tom Jones aka "ratagonia" aka "L'empereur" can be curiously modest at times, so to keep things moving along, allow me to confirm that he is the one and only (OAO)

Ratagonia

[harness man]

Thanks for clarifying that, Hank.
What JRAT pulled off is a classic 'David and Goliath' guerilla marketing strategy.
Following THAT playbook, we would harass and 'goof' on the established Imlay brand to leverage the new Canyon Werks brand; which we ain't gonna do!
Out of friendliness, admiration, and respect for Tom; and for pride and belief in our own product line.
Tom, we hope this friendly exchange has clarified our intent to follow our own vision at Canyon Werks, without taking from yours.
With Love, Todd and Desiree

[geckobiker]

Just a thought, if ICG had any product to sell, it would be much more difficult for Canyon Werks to market their product. I have been patiently destroying other packs and rope bags waiting for ICG product. Now I have an alternate, thank you very much.


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[Kuya]

Just a thought, if ICG had any product to sell, it would be much more difficult for Canyon Werks to market their product. I have been patiently destroying other packs and rope bags waiting for ICG product. Now I have an alternate, thank you very much.


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Agreed!

[ratagonia]

Just a thought, if ICG had any product to sell, ...

(BIG SIGH)

T

[jon.moab]

It is a bit ironic that this debate with ICG is even taking place. I have heard rumors that Tom's packs are largely based on/copies of some offered by Black Diamond years ago. If one were into making parallels, they would also know that Tom's resume lists time as a designer for BD. And he is complaining about embroidery on a different bag all together. Pot, meet the kettle.

[harness man]

Hi Jon! thanks for your comments.
The great qualities of Tom's Imlay packs certainly come form his decades-long experience as a pack designer/fabricator/ user which predates his stint with Black Diamond back to the JRAT days.
I have been an avid fan (and consumer) of Black Diamond alpine packs (as a climber) and can tell about the time that Tom left the company: the packs got worse!
Imlay packs have several REALLY distinct features that set them apart from all other packs. That is why they are the current 'gold standard' for canyoneering.
We do not think it fair to consider them 'copies of BD packs' when Tom helped design the BD packs.
Applying hard won experience to solve new challenges is called 'Wisdom'.
Todd and Desi at CANYON WERKS LLC.

[harness man]

Folks have asked for more colors to help organize their canyoneering ropes. New colors available http://www.canyonwerks.com