Late March in Utah

[Erik B]

I'm planning on bringing a crew down the last week of March to run some canyons for 5-7days. I recognize it might be a bit early for canyoneering. Not exactly ideal timing but we take what we can get. I saw high temps are typically between 60-70 though I've heard it can be quite variable. What areas are accessible AND enjoyable that time of year?

Powell?
Roost?
Ticaboo?

Are B canyons tolerable? Does ice persist that late?

[Slot Machine]

What areas are accessible AND enjoyable that time of year?

From what I've gathered, Powell is too expensive and too logistically difficult (for most) to shoot for unless the weather is likely to be 'prime' (April and October). Those other areas would be better options.

FWIW, we approach March and other 'non prime' months like this:

We pick 10 or 20 canyons roughly in the same area, head down there with a stack of beta, then just wing it! Do whatever feels right given the current conditions. We frequently pick the canyon we are going to do the night before we do it. Getting married to the idea of doing a specific canyon has been a recipe for misery, because far too often our canyon of choice wasn't in prime condition when we were in the neighborhood.

I'm a planner, so this approach used to make me rather uneasy. But it's mo' fun, trust me.

[Iceaxe]

Robbers Roost is usually great in March.

Most the Roost, North Wash, and the Powell Slot's near Bullfrog should be in prime conditions.

High winds in the area are normally the sucky weather item that time of year. Sand blowing at 50 mph and knocking over everything in it's path isn't nearly as much fun as you would think it would be.

[peakbaggers]

1. Fully agree with Slot - don't have a specific canyon or canyons to do - but rather have a list of options in the same area. The areas mentioned can be quite good at that time - however, the heavy rains of Sept - Oct in those areas may have left pools that in other years would have drained. 2. Spring winds can be horrendous, but as a resident of Grand Junction where our weather is quite similar, we have found that March is almost always better than April or May when it comes to the wind storms. Some of the best spring days seem to come in March.
"B" canyons should be "tolerable" and ice would be unlikely by late March in most cases - IMHO , however we don't have anywhere near the experience of Slot or Ice Axe.

[Scott P]

From what I've gathered, Powell is too expensive and too logistically difficult (for most) to shoot for unless the weather is likely to be 'prime' (April and October).

Keep in mind though, that many of the Powell slots are accessible overland, including the mentioned Ticaboo ones. The canyons around Bullfrog, for example are usually approached overland, especially outside the summer season. Usually when someone says "Powell" that time of year they are talking about the ones usually accessed overland.

[Slot Machine]

Keep in mind though, that many of the Powell slots are accessible overland, including the mentioned Ticaboo ones. The canyons around Bullfrog, for example are usually approached overland, especially outside the summer season. Usually when someone says "Powell" that time of year they are talking about the ones usually accessed overland.

Good point. When I think of Powell canyons, I think of boats.

Obviously, I just need to make more friends that say "Powell".

"B" canyons should be "tolerable" and ice would be unlikely by late March in most cases - IMHO

Yes, tolerable if you are prepared. 7mm wetsuits, thick neo gloves and a neo beanies (if not a hooded vest) are strongly recommended. It is amazing what a neoprene beanie can do to warm up a cold person. Also, I've been told the dish glove under Atlas glove combination works very well (a less expensive alternative to neoprene).

Icy ropes could prove to be a big problem in March. Choose your canyon wisely. Knotted Rope and the Black Hole minimize the risk of frozen ropes sound reasonably fun in icy conditions. Some friends did The Squeeze last March and said it was quite difficult, and not recommended.

[MPH]

Robbers roost in march! Awesome...so much to explore out there. Enjoy!

[Iceaxe]

Yes, tolerable if you are prepared. 7mm wetsuits, thick neo gloves and a neo beanies (if not a hooded vest) are strongly recommended. It is amazing what a neoprene beanie can do to warm up a cold person.

Gosh... I don't even own a 7mm wetsuit or a neoprene beanie and I've done hundreds of March Canyon.

A lot just depends on the canyon and how much water they hold. If we are talking just a couple potholes we often just strip down and blast through them and warm up and dress on the far side.

You did mention the Black Hole, but that canyon is at the extreme end of the spectrum. There are very few trade routes that require as much swimming as the Black Hole.

I can't think of any March Canyons in the Roost, Nort Wash or Poison Springs that would require heavy duty wetsuits. Same goes for most the car accessible Bullfrog Powell Canyons.




Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Slot Machine]

I can't think of any March Canyons in the Roost, Nort Wash or Poison Springs that would require heavy duty wetsuits. Same goes for most the car accessible Bullfrog Powell Canyons.

I assume when ebernhoft asks about B rated canyons, he means B rated canyons. Being somewhat familiar with the stuff he is after, I assume he's talking more difficult B rated canyons.

If we are talking "A/B", then yes, you are correct on all counts. And neoprene beanies are awesome. Don't care whatcha say.

Eric, for clarification, which B canyons are calling to you?

[Erik B]

Eric, for clarification, which B canyons are calling to you?

OH SO MANY....OH SO MANY!!!

I've got a LEEEEENGTHY hit list but I think for March we were thinking maybe Ticaboo for a week, maybe the Roost. What do you think about some of the canyons off of Hwy 89a near Page?

Initially we were hoping to rent a house boat and do some Powell Canyons from the water but we're having trouble scraping enough motivated friends together to foot the boat bills. We were thinking about doing some of these:
https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=z4CKZ1SjULhg.kfYOzSKrW0_4


I suppose these are all accessible by land too.

I would LOVE to go out to Escalante (Choprock/Baker/Headless Hen) but I suspect that conditions are NOT ideal in late March there.

Do you have any recommendations for a week-ish trip that time of year? This is the annual co-ed trip and we DO have a few ladies that aernt the warm-blooded type.

What type of winter are you all having down there so far?

-Erik B.

[Slot Machine]

Last March we did No Kidding, Paradiso, Cassidy and Adobe Swale. All pretty easy, and the weather was very nice, just a bit on the cold side. During that trip I missed out on a Knotted Rope / Quandary loop, feeling under the weather, and it required the full neoprene arsenal to keep my wife and friends warm.

In March 2012 I went to Escalante and soloed some easy stuff. It was VERY nice, with highs in the 60's. Egypt 3 was especially fun, with the southern facing exit feeling quite nice (usually it is pretty hot). Late March could easily be ideal. Headless would be very fun, not so sure about Baker and Chop, April would probably be better, with warmer temps and slightly longer days. E1 and E2 would also be worth considering.

Lower Waterholes would probably be pretty nice in March, along with Ticaboo. I like your map, it appears that it is time to update my own...

[jman]

I like your map, it appears that it is time to update my own...

Do you like MY map? ...he he...



Btw, doing it this way.....takes a LONG LONG time. I try to follow the topo maps as close as I can - rather than a straight line across the the entire canyon (which isn't even in the canyon) like ebernoft posted above.

If you get confused, by the way, I organize it by "significant" gps coordinates so you know exactly where the Trailhead begins, canyon enters, and exits. IE "Sinusitis - 1/7" means trailhead and "Sinusitis - 7/7" means route ends. HOWEVER..my version doesn't list the driving directions but only the route directions.

My project doesn't list how many rappels, rap lengths or water exposure, so research MUST be done (and that's the whole point). But it does list the canyon rating and that's about it.

The hardest part withing working GE, is when a canyon has multiple forks or canyons and getting your coordinates and paths to coordinate all into one.

As you can see in the left column, it lists Powell Canyons (work in progress), but you can select just one canyon, and that canyon (through much trial and error) won't interfere/overlay with any other canyon that starts from the same trailhead. IE Dante canyons.

It makes planning much, much easier!

Another thing, I organize it by folders in Google Earth because its the ONLY way to keep things organized. That way, the user just needs to click on the folder checkbox to see all of the paths and gps coordinates.

For Example:

• Lake Powell
  
• Adobe Swale
  
  • - Adobe Swale - 1/4 "list pertinent detail here" (GPS Placemark)
  • - Adobe Swale - 2/4 "list pertinent detail here" (GPS Placemark)
  • - etc.
  • - Adobe Swale - Approach (Path) "the Approach hike to Adobe Swale"
  • - Adobe Swale - Path (Path) "just the Canyon path"
  • - Adobe Swale - Exit (Path) "just the exit path - does not include road driving"

The reason why I lay it out this way, is so that the user who wants to fine detail the route - can de-select everything else, except for the "Approach Path" or "Exit Path" and get himself familiar with it, for example. Because, maybe he wants to modify it and see if there is an easier path out or wants to link it up with something else, etc.

And red routes = primary
and yellow routes = optional

Hopefully that can give you some ideas...

[Erik B]

Do you like MY map? ...he he...
Btw, doing it this way.....takes a LONG LONG time. I try to follow the topo maps as close as I can - rather than a straight line across the the entire canyon (which isn't even in the canyon) like ebernoft posted above.

Oh man...I hear you there. It takes FOREVER which is precisely why I didnt take the time to map the lines more accurately. Any chance you would share some of your work so we dont have to duplicate all that manual labor?

[jman]

Oh man...I hear you there. It takes FOREVER which is precisely why I didnt take the time to map the lines more accurately. Any chance you would share some of your work so we dont have to duplicate all that manual labor?

That is the eventual goal, yes.

I'll have to modify it quite a bit for a public release however (remove my personal notes, potential canyons list, remove my hiking and mine routes, etc.)

I just need to start the Zion canyons, add the mini-slots, and a few other misc canyons....so it's gonna be a few more weeks.

And what's funny is that even now where I am mostly done...I already have ideas for a version 2, release.

[Slot Machine]

Do you like MY map? ...he he...

I guess I'm obligated to reply.

Btw, doing it this way.....takes a LONG LONG time.

Building my map took a long time. 300 hours? Nobody cares that it took me a long time. Not even me.

I try to follow the topo maps as close as I can - rather than a straight line across the the entire canyon (which isn't even in the canyon) like ebernoft posted above.

Wow. Ebern's map isn't for navigation, just rough planning. Pretty obvious. I like that he maps his loops in the general area as part of his preparation. A savvy and efficient trip planner, so he seems. He has also mapped 4 or 5 canyons that I haven't, a sign that an update is needed.

It makes planning much, much easier!

Kind of like your glove compartment canyon rating thingy that NOBODY has in their glove compartment?

Your new map fills an imaginary need that lies somewhere between The Map and published beta. Unless you become a prolific and trusted beta publisher, your map will hold little credibility because it isn't married to a specific set of published beta.

Also, for many canyons, there are multiple ways to enter/exit, further hobbling your crippled creation. If it is useful to you, that's nice. Useful to others? ... Well, publish it and use the number of hits to gauge it's usefulness. Oh wait! You don't believe that's how evaluating content works!



For my reference: current Amazing Map hits 32,417

[jman]

I guess I'm obligated to reply.



Building my map took a long time. 300 hours? Nobody cares that it took me a long time. Not even me.



Wow. Ebern's map isn't for navigation, just rough planning. Pretty obvious. I like that he maps his loops in the general area as part of his preparation. A savvy and efficient trip planner, so he seems. He has also mapped 4 or 5 canyons that I haven't, a sign that an update is needed.



Kind of like your glove compartment canyon rating thingy that NOBODY has in their glove compartment?

Your new map fills an imaginary need that lies somewhere between The Map and published beta. Unless you become a prolific and trusted beta publisher, your map will hold little credibility because it isn't married to a specific set of published beta.

Also, for many canyons, there are multiple ways to enter/exit, further hobbling your crippled creation. If it is useful to you, that's nice. Useful to others? ... Well, publish it and use the number of hits to gauge it's usefulness. Oh wait! You don't believe that's how evaluating content works!



For my reference: current Amazing Map hits 32,417

oh geez..... here he goes again.....
....
...
...
...

Feel better? I'm glad that's out of your system now....ha ha

I see that you are keeping reference of your total hits. lol. You are right...nobody cares about that, except you (including your 300 hour project)

btw - 300 hours for all of those coordinates???? I feel your pain to a degree...I'm roughly at 50+ hrs for my project. The longest part is drawing the routes.

Also, for many canyons, there are multiple ways to enter/exit, further hobbling your crippled creation. If it is useful to you, that's nice. Useful to others? ... Well, publish it and use the number of hits to gauge it's usefulness. Oh wait! You don't believe that's how evaluating content works!

Actually there are not "many canyons" with "multiple ways to enter/exit"...well, I mean...if you want to make it harder on yourself you can use those multiple ways to enter/exit... Besides, when it comes to access and the public, YOU (BOB) as a canyoneering advocate, should be using the one "established' path, and not the numerous ways into the canyon.

And the paths that I drew come from "prolific and trusted" sources. They did all of the heavy lifting when it came to route finding. I just mirrored it.

Useful to others? I obviously do care about that - however......I don't care about the numbers. Obviously you have an obsession it for some strange, self-serving, egotistical reason. For a comparison: Just because Miley Cyrus's song Wrecking Ball has over 460 MILLION VIEWS - does not imply that the song is quality ;) But alas, it's a subjective art...

I will agree that my "Canyon List" still has ways to go.... I don't even have it in my glove compartment...ha ha. However, just because I don't use it regularly doesn't mean that somebody else can't find it helpful. Even if it's not useful in paper form, it sounds like it would work really, really well online. In fact, I received a few Private Messages from Bogley members who expressed interest in helping with it and using it on their website. In fact, Candition v2.0 might even use it ;)

Bob, just as a "reference", did you know that Candition.com (a site that you use often ;) came from one of my projects? Well, it did. You better stop using it just in spite of me...LOLz.

True, I guess all of my projects can't ALL be helpful - but again, neither can Google. ha ha ha ha

And I am not a beta publisher at all. But, I am a analyst of data. That's why I get paid the big bucks. I put that data into mediums and presentations. And I'm REALLY good at it.




Moving on...
@ebernhoft - check your PM. Take a look and let me know what you think - privately or publicly. Let me know if the public could find this helpful in any way or if it's just a "imaginary need".

[Slot Machine]

I obviously do care about that - however......I don't care about the numbers. Obviously you have an obsession it for some strange, self-serving, egotistical reason. For a comparison: Just because Miley Cyrus's song Wrecking Ball has over 460 MILLION VIEWS - does not imply that the song is quality ;) But alas, it's a subjective art...

Basic logic. It is WILD how you don't get the concept. (If A then B, true or false.)

I'll try to use little words.

If multiple routes to a canyon exist, then I (ME BOB) must use multiple routes, and am suddenly an unethical canyoneer?? How do you connect A to B, and say to yourself "True!"?

If an internet resourse gets tens of thousands of hits, those hits have no reflection on it's usefulness.
Again, how do you connect A to B, and say to yourself "True!"?

Comparing a canyon map to music video, then thinking you've made a valid point? (Rhetorical. Although, IF her goal is putting teenage eyes on the screen, THEN she is a content genius.)

Saying I'm self-serving because I'm pointing out an objective metric?

See the pattern here?

I'll throw you a bone. Candition is GREAT. Well done! But again, IF you add your map, THEN Candtion will be better? Isn't that like building a swimming pool in your yard when you live next door to a rec center?

And your routes aren't "mirrored", they are stolen. Most are copywritten, unlike the little markers on my map.

@Iceaxe? Thoughts?

[Iceaxe]

Do you like ICEAXE' s map? ...he he...

I fixed that for ya....

The instant I saw that map I knew immediately where the displayed routes came from....

It's like looking at babies.... they all pretty much look the same to others but you can instantly spot your kid in a room full of others.





Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[jman]

I fixed that for ya....

The instant I saw that map I knew immediately where the displayed routes came from....

It's like looking at babies.... they all pretty much look the same to others but you can instantly spot your kid in a room full of others.





Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

It's true. I also have CC, Luke, and a few others in their respective folders too.

But Shane, kudos goes to you, you by far have the best topo maps.