Opposite and opposed biners instead of lockers

[oval]

It's been a while since I've messed around with canyoning in utah. However, I remember how bad the sand in lockers could get, even with rinsing.

That being said, I was curious if anyone had gone to opposite and opposed carabiners instead of lockers. I knew a guy that used to do this all the time (mostly in conjunction with figure 8s). The merits seem pretty high when using this in place of a locker on a belay device.

1. Having two biners is redundant
2. No screw gate sleeves means no jamming with sand
3. If using with a figure 8, you don't have to worry about the levered gate nose brake scenario that can kill you. (this type of one, if you use a figure 8 and are un-aware: http://www.theuiaa.org/upload_area/f...e-of-eight.pdf)

Anyhow, just wondering if anyone does this with regularity. Pros and/or cons that you may have encountered, or even just theorize?

[moab mark]

I haven't had much trouble with not being able to open biners unless some noob cranks it down for all they're worth.

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[ilipichicuma]

Same. I've only had a screw gate jam once or twice, and even then it wasn't something that took more than a minute to figure out. Opposite and opposed biners, while theoretically just as safe, sounds like more of a hassle.

[Brian in SLC]

Canyon pioneer and curmudgion Dennis Turville advicated using two standard biners in the Slot Canyon video done years back.

[hank moon]

Canyon pioneer and curmudgion Dennis Turville advicated using two standard biners in the Slot Canyon video done years back.

Them was pre-pirana days...he probably was also an advocate of the canyon swami :)

[ratagonia]

Canyon pioneer and curmudgion Dennis Turville advicated using two standard biners in the Slot Canyon video done years back.

Is that like the trump-card argument in FAVOR, or in OPPOSITION?

T

[ratagonia]

Same. I've only had a screw gate jam once or twice, and even then it wasn't something that took more than a minute to figure out. Opposite and opposed biners, while theoretically just as safe, sounds like more of a hassle.

Nothing like making things more complicated to improve safety... NOT!

T

[deagol]

I read that accident report on locking carabiners. Seems like a little common sense might go a long way ....

[oval]

Nothing like making things more complicated to improve safety... NOT!

T

Not sure if I am reading your post right, but opposite and opposed biners is both more simple and more safe than a single locker.

[ratagonia]

Not sure if I am reading your post right, but opposite and opposed biners is both more simple and more safe than a single locker.

Really Oval? Using two non-locking carabiners is simpler than using one carabiner with a small locking sleeve? And safer??? Do tell.

Tom

[spinesnaper]

Really Oval? Using two non-locking carabiners is simpler than using one carabiner with a small locking sleeve? And safer??? Do tell.

Tom

At the risk of dating myself, when I was actively rock climbing (dinosaurs roamed the earth and the Stitch plate was the exciting must have innovation) all we had were SMC ovals (OK I think there were Chouinard D's but they didn't lock either). No one I climbed with had lockers. It was opposing gates or nothing. Now in the canyon I only carry lockers.

Ken

[oval]

Really Oval? Using two non-locking carabiners is simpler than using one carabiner with a small locking sleeve? And safer??? Do tell.

Tom

You saw the link of how lockers can be broken open with figure 8's that I posted? With 2 biners O&O that can't happen.
You are also redundant.
You also have far less parts on 2 non-lockers than 1 locker.

Of course many underlying things about these points can (and no double will) be argued, but you can't get more basic or more simple than O and O.

Whether it is worth trade-offs is another question entirely. It's more of the question that I was trying to frame in the 1st post, but really haven't heard much about other than "sand isn't an issue", but no real counters to 2 O and O biners (keylock, obviously!).

[ratagonia]

You saw the link of how lockers can be broken open with figure 8's that I posted?

Yes.

My conclusion was "thanks be to the deity that we don't use Figure 8's anymore".

While the gate-breaking action of a Figure 8 on a carabiner happens, it happens very rarely. Seems like one or two incidents a year from the entire world, though it is very hard to estimate the frequency of things that happen so rarely. There ARE reported incidents. (Perhaps because only Dinosaurs who have not yet died out are still using Figure 8s.)

"You also have far less parts on 2 non-lockers than 1 locker."

Non-locker: Body, gate, rivet, spring, spring bar = 6 pieces, add another rivet if not a keylock carabiner. 12 pieces for a set of two.

Locker: all the pieces above plus a locking sleeve and a spring clip. BD screwgate lockers add another spring clip. 9 pieces for one locking (BD) carabiner.

Probably more of an issue is, in the canyon, that is two pieces instead of one. Many people carry 4 or 6 carabiners, so 4 or 6 vs 8 or 12???

"Whether it is worth trade-offs is another question entirely. It's more of the question that I was trying to frame in the 1st post, but really haven't heard much about other than "sand isn't an issue", but no real counters to 2 O and O biners (keylock, obviously!)."

Screwgate carabiners get a little gummed up with the sand, and once in a while require some effort to get moving again. And they wear out more quickly. But it doesn't bother me, and it does not seem to bother other people. Some brands are more prone to getting gummed up, and if it bothers you, you might try using a different brand.

When using an ATC, it is common to use two carabiners underneath the ATC to get more friction. I have watched a lot of people struggle with these two carabiners, so it makes me skeptical that this is a "simple system".

Putting two carabiners in with reversed gates is not entirely simple, and I have seen even experienced people make errors in doing so. Some 'experienced-in-their-own-minds' people do not entirely understand the concept, thinking that the biner gates just have to be on opposite sides, not realizing that the gate orientation also needs to be offset. (Of the four possible combinations, two are correct and two are incorrect). So I don't think it is as straight-forward as you think it is. Thus, I think it is error-prone; more error-prone than the screwgate locking carabiner system.

Rappel devices may or may not work with doubled carabiners. My Pirana, not so much. An ATC - the friction changes a lot. Some Figure 8s it probably works with and some not so hot, but only dinosaurs use Figure 8s, and most of them have died off by now, and you won't get them to change their ways anyway.

I'm sorry my snarky comments did not address the issues involved. I hope that I have now addressed the substance of your invitation with compelling arguments.

Feel free to use doubled carabiners if you wish. It's a free country, at least on that issue. For now.

Tom