Destroying Formations at Goblin Valley

[rockgremlin]

Kinda like Rockgremlin here on Bogley. Always ready to pounce and take jabs at anything LDS related

Just doin' my job.

Trollin' aint easy but it's necessary....so I'm chasin' frownies like Tom chases Jerry....

[DOSS]

Looks like the fine upstanding guy who pushed the rock over has permanent debilitating injury's.. well at least that is in the lawsuit he filed last month.. this guy keeps getting better
http://www.4utah.com/story/goblin-to...2UydGV_Dne9fOg

ALPINE, Utah (ABC 4 Utah) – The man who is seen toppling over a goblin in Central Utah in a viral video online is found to have filed a personal injury lawsuit a month before the incident in which he said he has permanent and debilitating injuries.

Glenn Taylor, a Boy Scout troop leader, pushed over the massive rock at Goblin Valley State Park a week ago. Taylor filed the personal injury lawsuit last month.

The video posted on Facebook went viral and created uproar from the public. The formations are tens of millions of years old.

The men claimed they were protecting people from the fragile rock. In an interview with ABC News, Taylor said he toppled the goblin for safety reasons.

But Alan Macdonald isn’t buying it.

“I was just highly offended to see somebody act that way,” Macdonald said.

Macdonald doesn’t know Taylor, but he is being sued by him. Macdonald’s daughter was in a car accident and hit Taylor in 2009. Roughly four years later, Taylor is suing Macdonald and his daughter for personal injuries.

“In the video I see a big strong guy who steps up to a 2,000 pound rock and dislodges it and I just think to myself, that guy doesn’t have a bad back,” Macdonald said.

In the lawsuit, Taylor said he endured “great pain and suffering, disability, impairment, loss of life" from the car accident has incurred an estimated $5,000 in medical related expenses.

“Somebody with a bad back who is disabled who can’t enjoy life to me doesn’t step up and push a rock right off it’s base,” Macdonald said.

Macdonald said so many people have seen the now infamous video he wonders if Taylor will have second thoughts about suing his family.

Utah State Park officials said the men in the video could face federal charges for their actions.

Taylor also told ABC News he has some regrets.

“The Boy Scouts didn’t teach me to do this,” Taylor said. “Would I do it again? Yes, with a ranger standing there. That’s what we should have done.”

Several attempts to reach Taylor and his attorney for comment on the personal injury lawsuit were not immediately returned.

[Felicia]

^^^

[hank moon]

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

[Scott P]

more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube

Agree.

We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention.

For sure.

what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park

Intent?

If they were scrambling around and accidentally knocked over the rock it would be different than going over and pushing it over on purpose, even though the results are the same.

Same with a rope groove. If someone were to go out and intentionally create one just for fun or for youtube fame, it may be different than creating one on accident.

This does bring up a good point though that everyone has probably impacted the outdoors in some way and should look at changing their own behavior.

[DOSS]

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

based on the recent news about his disability lawsuit it seems like this guy has some character issues that lead me to believe that he would do it knowing he shouldn't just cuz he thought he could get away with it.

as for rope grooves VS intentionally toppling a rock one is a byproduct and is not intended to destroy (and most of us do try to mitigate this) and one was an intentional act of destruction with no mitigation :)

[Scott P]

PS,

It is likely that if the people pushing over the rock expressed remorse and admitted a mistake, instead of keep insisting that they did the right thing, then it is likely that this would have blown over very quickly.

[rockgremlin]

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

Wait a second....just so I get this straight....you're condoning his actions because they may in some way be comparable to canyoneers making rope grooves?

Before you answer that consider this: rope grooves will be mitigated over time. Consistent wind and water erosion will erase rope grooves.....time and erosion WILL NOT put that rock back on that pedestal.

Rope grooves = temporary. Goblin Valley vandalism = permanent.

C'mon Hank, is this a troll? Are you serious? Anybody who gets out and enjoys the redrock should by appalled by his kid's actions. Otherwise, why not go tip over Balanced Rock, Delicate Arch or Landscape Arch in the name of "stupid?" Your flippancy towards this issue is surprising.

[Scott P]

C'mon Hank, is this a troll?

Maybe Hank should clarify, but I read it as something along the lines of let he who is without sin cast the first stone, rather than a defense of their actions. It was also framed in the form of a question.

[Reedus]

, why not go tip over Delicate Arch?"

I already tried. Wasn't strong enough. It would take at least 2 guys to push it over

[Glenn]

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Well, the legal definition of malice differs from that which we think of in terms of personal interaction. It can be interpreted to mean any conscious violation of the law without just cause.

But here's where these guys actually might have some legal defense. I've visited the GVSP website and scoured the 'net for any wording or pictures of signs that state - explicitly or implicitly - NOT to hike, stand, push, or otherwise modify the formations. I haven't found any. The website shows nothing. One picture of a sign at the park shows this:


Can I climb on the goblins?


Exploring is a big part of the park experience, however, we do not recommend climbing on the goblins. Rock surfaces may be unstable; the most common accidents in the park are falls. Remember, Goblin Valley is extremely remote and a long way from medical services. Hike at your own risk.


Does hiking on the goblins destroy them?


People do have an effect on the Goblin Valley landscape. To better understand how much of an impact we have, the park is implementing a long-term erosion study. The study will be comparing erosion rates in high traffic areas to erosion rates in low traffic areas. With this information we hope to balance visitor recreation and park protection in the future.

So, it doesn't say, "No" to the first question. And it doesn't state anywhere about pushing them over.

I'm not offering this as an excuse, just a possible legal defense that might be used.

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

I think their act has more in common with climbers who chisel out handholds or add new bolts where prohibited. If the grooves are already there, a responsible visitor would avoid using them in favor of a LNT option, unless safety was an issue.

Another analogy might be accidental vs. intentional disregard or destruction or cryptobiotic soil. The erosion effects are well-documented (can last dozens or hundreds of years before a destroyed area is reclaimed), but the damage isn't usually apparent to the perpetrator.

[rockgremlin]

Great post Glenn, Thanks. All I can say is.......here come the fences.

[accadacca]

I was just down at Natural Bridges over the weekend. I took this in the visitors center of good ole Zeke Johnson. I guess these scout leaders should be sent down this direction. That formation looks VERY dangerous!

[accadacca]

Men who toppled Goblin Valley rock removed as Boy Scout leaders

Two men involved in toppling an ancient boulder in Goblin Valley State Park were kicked out of Boy Scout leadership positions Monday.

David Hall and Glenn Taylor will no longer serve as leaders in the Utah National Parks Council, according to a news release from the Boy Scouts of America. The decision comes from the council leadership, which referred to the men’s behavior as "reprehensible" and a violation of the scout principle of "leave no trace."

The men drew worldwide attention to themselves after they posted a video of Taylor pushing over a rock formation in the state park. Hall shot the video and posted it to Facebook. The video later spread to Youtube and was picked up by dozens of news sites and discussion forums.

John Gailey, executive director for the National Parks Council, said leaders have been discussing the incident since the video surfaced last week. The decision to removed the men came over the weekend following conversations with park leaders, the Attorney General’s Office and the LDS Church, which sponsors the troop, Gailey added.

According to Gailey, Taylor was serving as a unit leader, meaning he was responsible for running the scouting program in his area. Gailey did not immediately know Hall’s leadership position.

Both men have told The Salt Lake Tribune that the rock was loose and a safety hazard, which they fixed by knocking over.

The Boy Scouts disagree. In the news release, council leadership expressed shock and disappointment over the men’s actions. It also describes them as isolated incidents that are "absolutely counter to our beliefs and what we teach."

Gailey reiterated Monday that Hall and Taylor’s actions "definitely didn’t represent scouting or our focus on outdoor conservation."

Hall said Monday that Boy Scout leaders talked to him about the decision and he understands why it was made. Hall expressed support for the decision and the Boy Scouts’ mission. He added that he plans to use the incident as a learning experience.

Taylor did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

Source: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57...aders.html.csp

[Scott P]

^^^^
I am glad the people have been released from their leadership positions. I hope this incident doesn't ruin their lives and that others aren't out for blood (the death threats the people have received are out of line), but I think that releasing them from their leadership rules was appropriate.

I guess these scout leaders should be sent down this direction. That formation looks VERY dangerous!

That was already pulled down by a Jeep and a chain years ago, but I'm guessing that you already knew this?

[owenfw]

Ironically, the Utah National Parks Council was offering a 16-hour Leave No Trace training course just this past weekend.

This certainly doesn't help the perception of LDS-sponsored BSA troops being kind of half-a**ed since the "call" to serve precedes any training and usually no training ever happens afterwards either for the vast majority of adult advisers. I wonder how many adult advisers even know that there is a youth Leave No Trace trainer position that can/should be filled in each Varsity team.

[oldno7]

i doubt that this was a malicious act. more likely they did it for fun and the kind of fame you get on YOuTube, so where's the malice in that? We've all done stupid, idiotic stuff w/o drawing public attention. Yay! for anonymous stupidity?

Q : what is the moral/ethical (not legal) difference between going out every weekend and deepening rope grooves on trade canyon routes in a national park vs. toppling a rock in a state park? Asking does not imply that there is no difference...

There is no difference hank. All commoners should know to stay off the king's land.....I say to the rack with him. http://www.medievality.com/the-rack-torture.html

[Sombeech]

Well, the legal definition of malice differs from that which we think of in terms of personal interaction. It can be interpreted to mean any conscious violation of the law without just cause....

Interesting post, Glenn.

This could actually put to rest all of the "Felony" screams for justice. They didn't break any park rules, just suggestions (along with going against respect of the environment, countless other things, but no clear rule or LAW was broken).

I see the only legal trouble that guy could be in for is insurance fraud.

[Scott P]

They didn't break any park rules

Actually they did. Glenn only shows a picture of the sign at the picnic area.

Here is the pamphlet they pass out when you access the park:

http://www.castlecountry.com/media/u...k-Brochure.pdf

Vandalism- It is unlawful to mutilate or deface any natural
or constructed feature or structure. Please help keep our
parks beautiful.

I think the above is clear in that they actually did break the law.

[rockgremlin]

This could actually put to rest all of the "Felony" screams for justice.

The "felony" they committed wasn't decreed by Bogley.com, but by the legal system that you and I and everyone else currently lives under.

Misdemeanors don't make international news.