Dangerous Webbing in Arizona Canyons

[azhiker00]

I have heard that someone is purposely cutting just part of the webbing in some Arizona canyons and leaving behind a deadly situation. This comes from someone who said the information came from someone in and Arizona SAR, anyone else hear about this? Be sure to check your webbing thoroughly...including close to the knot!

[qedcook]

If that's true, that's messed up!

[hank moon]

Be sure to check your webbing thoroughly...including close to the knot!

Excellent advice for every anchor on every trip to any canyon.

And don't forget to include the thing or things your anchor is attached to:

rock + bolt + hanger
tree + roots + dirt
chock + rock
etc...

[dougr]

Insane. I had a situation a few weeks ago in the Seven Cataracts where all the webbing was missing. Just flat gone at every rap. I used up 95' of my 100' webbing supply in the 1.5 hr longer descent than normal while retying every single one. Really ticked me off that someone went to such lengths to eliminate webbing that was perfectly fine on my descent just 3 weeks prior. I wonder now if it's related.

I back up all reused webbing as others descend before me. Yet another reason to do so.

[SRG]

[hank moon]

I back up all reused webbing as others descend before me. Yet another reason to do so.

Does this mean you add webbing to existing webbing w/o consideration of whether the existing webbing is ok as-is?

[dweaver2130]

I ran into a similar problem in Parker. All the webbing was gone, put in all my own webbing, went back two weeks later and all my webbing was gone.

I was wondering why, second guessing if I had placed it wrong or if I missed and easier way, guess not.

[Bootboy]

They just wanna keep it fresh for everyone;).

The thing is, if they are cutting webbing, what are they rapping off of? Natural anchors? Straight through the hangers? Sand traps? Interesting.

[dweaver2130]

They just wanna keep it fresh for everyone;).

The thing is, if they are cutting webbing, what are they rapping off of? Natural anchors? Straight through the hangers? Sand traps? Interesting.

Well in my example they are rapping straight through the hangers on new bolts and over an edge that complicates the rappel.

[deagol]

maybe it's time we start installing ladder rungs for all the drops

[Glenn]

This raises a question I've always had about canyoneering. How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?

I'm not trying to sound critical or snarky, but it's one of those things that's kept me out of the sport.

[jman]

This brings up a ethics question. If you have a good anchor and good webbing already left at a drop where no groove is going to occur - should u leave it there and let others see/use it? Or do you take it with you hoping that the next party will do the responsible thing but come to find out they place a new bolt, or don't extend the webbing thereby creating a new groove or enlarging it. Eh?


-Brett

[hank moon]

This brings up a ethics question. If you have a good anchor and good webbing already left at a drop where no groove is going to occur - should u leave it there and let others see/use it? Or do you take it with you hoping that the next party will do the responsible thing but come to find out they place a new bolt, or don't extend the webbing thereby creating a new groove or enlarging it. Eh?

Eh? indeed!

I'm not clear on what you are asking; is it whether good anchors in trade routes should be left in place or removed? And, what is "the responsible thing" ? Please elaborate.

[Scott P]

How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?

Never trust anything that you didn't install until testing it. I think just about everyone has gotten lax about this at least a time or two. It's never a good idea to trust something you didn't inspect and test.

By the way, speaking in canyoneering code, "this looks bomber", or "this seems safe" really means "you go first".

[flatiron]

By the way, speaking in canyoneering code, "this looks bomber", or "this seems safe" really means "you go first".

In the same vein - " you go 1st" also means " I want to go 1st when it is nice and easy and seems safe, but YOU go 1st when I'm scared, this is hard, I will need an assist down, and maybe not so safe"

[Slot Machine]

How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?

I do not trust. That is how.

I just assume any anchor left before me is going to fail, and that the previous group survived because they were lucky. People tie horrible webbing knots and built shitty anchors all of the time. Flash floods move boulders and shift deadman anchors, often making them unsuitable for further use. Taking the time to properly assess each obstacle is key to your group's health and well-being.

It is VERY rare that you are forced to simply 'trust', i.e. having just one option (not backed up) for an anchor. The single ancient pitons in The Squeeze come to mind... It is the only time that I wish I had a bolt kit, and no question would have used it.

[jman]

Eh? indeed!

I'm not clear on what you are asking; is it whether good anchors in trade routes should be left in place or removed? And, what is "the responsible thing" ? Please elaborate.

Sure thing Mr Moon.

So let's say you are doing one of the NW canyons or RR canyons and there is a rappel. Let's say you come across it and you see a bomber anchor with yards of webbing with a Rapide at the end. This current setup (generally speaking) will not leave any groove while you rappel. However, you decide to ghost it and take everything with you (which is the appropriate standard - in the ethos of leave no trace). However, the group following you is a meetup group. They don't know better as they just "conquer" the canyon. They don't see any anchors or webbing (that's extended mind you) and they lay down a webbing line that is within there comfort level (which is not extended over the lip) thereby creating a new groove.

Does that help clarify it a little more? Typing on a phone sux, but that's all I have for now.

Ps - this could be in trade canyons AND lesser-known canyons.


-Brett

[Slot Machine]

Eh? indeed!

Hank, be nice. Maybe English isn't really his thing.

[Slot Machine]

So let's say you are doing one of the NW canyons or RR canyons and there is a rappel. Let's say you come across it and you see a bomber anchor with yards of webbing with a Rapide at the end. This current setup (generally speaking) will not leave any groove while you rappel. However, you decide to ghost it and take everything with you (which is the appropriate standard - in the ethos of leave no trace). However, the group following you is a meetup group. They don't know better as they just "conquer" the canyon. They don't see any anchors or webbing (that's extended mind you) and they lay down a webbing line that is within there comfort level (which is not extended over the lip) thereby creating a new groove.

I'm pretty sure you know the answers to all of this...

Random questions does not a quality forum make.

[flatiron]

This raises a question I've always had about canyoneering. How can you participate in an activity where you have to trust and constantly test the integrity of devices/equipment left before you?

Good question - serious. My climbing mentor always described climbing as 'problem solving'. I agree. Also think of canyoneering in same context. I have several canyoneering partners who use that exact term as one of the main reasons they are attracted to the sport. Unlike hiking, or skiing, or biking, there is problem solving of all kinds to descend a canyon. And much more so as they get harder. (IMHO I think you see less accidents in harder canyons in part because you have to stay very focused on getting down rather than socialize or assume others are taking care of any safety issues.).