Pandoras Box RESCUE, June 2012

[MiCamp]

the ingenuity of fools should never be misunderestimated!!

I'm gonna get a tuxedo with this embroidered on it.

[spinesnaper]

Certainly not. While I try to make my beta foolproof, the ingenuity of fools should never be misunderestimated!!



Tom

During ophthalmology residency there was a saying "You can't refract a 20/400 brain to 20/20." I personally think you have done a great job in your Zion book rattling your reader's cage before getting into the descriptions of Imlay and Heaps. Beta peddling --tough job.

Ken

[hesse15]

Certainly not. While I try to make my beta foolproof, the ingenuity of fools should never be misunderestimated!!



Tom

Tom I think your problem and all of the other beta writers is that you know things and use your brain, and as strange it will sound most lets see 75% of people that do canyons left any brain cells at home and when they see "expert only" it cause the opposite effect they flock like bee on honey!!!!
or when you said "condition change" they think a alcatraz in summer is equal to an alcatraz in fall or winter!!!!
i think better warning is "if you overestimate yourself you can get seriously injured and elicopter rides are 40grand and up"
probably more efficient warning!!!!
i witness a guy that with 50% rain and flash flood warning just suggested is group to take snorkeling gears with almost deadly results as you are aware of!!!

[Bclark29]

You beat me by one hour. .. Which exit did you take?

[Bclark29]

"As a matter of leadership ethics, the statement "My wife and I could have easily made it back to the car." is especially stinky Nothing like blaming your friends for your own mistakes. "

Yes, I take blame for what happened and yes you're right that I shouldn't blame it on my friends...but, I kinda do, a little. You guys say I didn't learn a lesson here, but I did. If you've never been through what I've experienced, you are either hiding a secret like I was or you've read others peoples post like mine that keep you from making a mistake like mine.

[Bclark29]

Also, didn't a bunch of boy scouts and leaders get stuck in Pandora's Box this year? If you hardcore canyoneers haven't done Pandoras yet, I highly suggest you give it a go. It's awesome. Probably my top 3 favorite canyons so far that I'VE done.

[hesse15]

my Pandora with RC was 7hrs car to car with lunch and pictures and not really rushing just his pace!!!!

You beat me by one hour. .. Which exit did you take?

so you did in 8hrs and you had time for ..... ,usually we did that home and take our sweet time !!!!
we decided to find the climb up that we heard off to add to the site

[Bclark29]

I think it is fair to say that Shane and I are somewhat perplexed by why this canyon draws people who need to be rescued over and over again.

One reason I have not beta'd it yet is that I want to be thorough and include a good description of the escape route, which I have not yet done; and the hard-climb-up bypass route, which I have not yet done; and the Pandora's Lite version of the canyon, which I have not yet done.

And I guess it is fair to say that I am happy to have Shane bear the responsibility for all the rescues in there, to the extent the beta-provider does. Mr K, of course, bears no responsibility because he declines to recognize even the concept of him having any responsibility for the consequences of his actions.

Tom

Well, I've only done the Meeks Mesa Exit 1 1/2 times now. I'm pretty sure I saved it in my GPS, I'll go with you when you do it.

[Bclark29]

so you did in 8hrs and you had time for ..... ,usually we did that home and took our sweet time there!!!!

Haha, I was doing while i was flying in the helicopter. No for reals though, job well done, I've done Pandoras twice now, it's not easy, its tough.

[Bclark29]

Certainly, the user is 100% responsible for their own safety.

But this does not mean there is not a responsibility on the part of the Beta provider to do a good job. Just as with blame, the sum of responsibilities totals more than 100%.

But...

Are you talking legal responsibility or moral responsibility? Shane has done a good job of trying to characterize the difficulties of this canyon, but the rose-colored glasses of novice-canyoneer-beta-readers seems to bypass that part of the description. I think he has fulfilled his legal and moral responsibilities.

My comment was mostly a jest.

Tom

Like I've said over and over and over, IT WAS MY RESPONSIBILITY AND MY FAULT FOR WHAT HAPPENED IN PANDORAS BOX...but, even if I didn't have newbies with me shanes beta was not as "full in description" as his other canyons. All I've ever used is shane's beta. I like it. I still use it to this day. I actually emailed him after my incident and told him that he needs to add WAY more to the canyons technicality, which he did. I never told him what had happened to me, and again IT WAS MY FAULT SO I DIDN'T FEEL THE NEED TO TELL HIM I ****ED UP.

Shane, I love youre BETA, keep up the good work.

[hesse15]

Haha, I was doing while i was flying in the helicopter. No for reals though, job well done, I've done Pandoras twice now, it's not easy, its tough.

i noticed canyons difficulties change in base of how is the group dynamics, I had the fortune to have leisure times trough them for almost 7years with the best canyoneer out there.

so a canyon with him was a walk,but the same canyons when i took other people I did not know took me double the time.
so you will notice that when you find the right canyon-teammate everything go so much faster and look much easier!!!!
byt he was the guy that found pandora-box !!!!

for water i am paranoid so in summer I sometime carry a 6 liter dromedary and a small separate bottle in case i run out.
and usually in winter around 3-4liters also if i just hike to lake blanche!!!!!

[Bclark29]

who do you go with?

[hesse15]

who do you go with?

RC=Ryan Cornia (average joe website)

[hank moon]

I think it is fair to say that Shane and I are somewhat perplexed by why this canyon draws people who need to be rescued over and over again.

Over-emphasizing the ACA rating system might be a contributing factor. I have recently learned that some beginner canyoneers put great stock in the system. Most popular technical canyons are in the catch-all 3A/B category, some with a few little details tacked on at the end (stuff like "R" and "IV", for example). With rose-colored glasses firmly in place, one might look at Pandora's rating* and conclude that it's "kinda like Pine Creek, only spicier and longer - and without the water" But it's a lot more than that.

Perhaps the technical difficulty number in Pandora's rating should be upped to 4 ?

* 3A R IV - at climb-utah.com 3A or B IV at BluuGnome.com 3B R- at ajroadtrips.com

[Mountaineer]

...the ACA rating system might be a contributing factor...

I believe the flawed ACA rating system is definitely contributing.

[Bootboy]

I believe the flawed ACA rating system is definitely contributing.

Once again, I'm advocating a revision of the rating scale to a 1-5, instead of 1-4. Many class 3 canyons would and should be moved to 4, and a few select canyons would actually make the 5 rating.

[rockgremlin]

Men and their assumptions about women

I make that assumption for everyone I go with....especially women....

[Bclark29]

Honestly, if I didn't make the mistake of bringing newbies with me on Pandora's, to me, Pandora's is just another sweet/ bad ass technical canyon. I've done Kolob twice now, once in the spring and once in early summer, that canyon is rated hard and I felt that it was super easy. Pandora's brings a new level to technicality, stemming and downclimbing. I agree that the rating on Pandora's should possibly be rated harder than what it's set at.

[Taylor]

Excellent story and thread Bclark. We did Pandora this summer and I agree that it should be regarded as harder than a 3 canyon. One of these days I will get around to posting some proper trip reports but the short story is this: Pandora was one of the toughest days ever in a canyon for us. Probably surpassed only by Poe and Heaps. I imagine the next time through there will be quite different, knowing what to expect.

I would also commend you for calling rescue and not going for the supplies yourself and splitting the group. Calling SAR as soon as it becomes obvious that help is needed makes it safer for rescue personnel and more likely to result in a positive outcome.

[Iceaxe]

A little history.... I have spoken with the CRNP rangers in great length about the rescues in Pandora's.

I was the first to release beta on Pandora's 10 years ago and rescues were rare in the canyon for the first 8 years. All the beta that followed the original release used the same route as my original description, which was the down Chimney exit.

That all changed when the over Meeks Mesa exit was released by another beta sprayer.... and SAR's skyrocketed. For the most part it is not the slot causing issues. It is the Meeks exit.

I added the more diificult Meeks exit to Climb-Utah when members began requesting it after it was outted.

Anyhoo... the NPS contacted all the beta peddlers about a year ago and asked us all to remove the Meeks exit and direct traffic down Chimney. I agreed and removed the exit, but others refused. Recently I have added the Meeks exit back into my beta so I can compete with those that refused. I did add some strong warnings about Chimney being the easier and preferred exit and Meeks being for experts only..... who knows if that will do any good. Most canyoneers believe they are experts and other websites do not have the same warnings regarding Meeks. Also on the map Meeks looks much more inviting than the long walk down Chimney.

The rescue that started this thread would probably not of occurred if they had of used the Chimney exit as technically its just a stroll and you can usually get water at Spring Canyon.

So.... that's a little of the canyons history. As far as I'm concerned the only major difficulty with Pandora's is it's a very long day, which turns into a bivy for noobs, large groups and those that believe the warnings don't apply to them.



Tap'n on my Galaxy G3