Beginner friendly with competent leadership

[jaredr]

Questions for the canyon gurus out there:
I frequently read descriptions of canyons as being "beginner friendly with competent leadership". At what point did you feel you were a competent canyon leader?
Everyone starts out incompetent. Through experience, training, and maybe a close call or two you were able to progress toward and eventually become competent. What did you do to minimize risks while progressing? Attend classes? Go with more experienced people? Be an extremely lucky person? Did you do everything you suggest or are these things you wish you would have done/would have known at the time?
Are there any good metrics to measure competency of a canyon leader? The most common ones I hear, years of experience and number of canyon descents, give little indication as to one's true ability to lead.

[ratagonia]

Questions for the canyon gurus out there:
I frequently read descriptions of canyons as being "beginner friendly with competent leadership". At what point did you feel you were a competent canyon leader?
Everyone starts out incompetent. Through experience, training, and maybe a close call or two you were able to progress toward and eventually become competent. What did you do to minimize risks while progressing? Attend classes? Go with more experienced people? Be an extremely lucky person? Did you do everything you suggest or are these things you wish you would have done/would have known at the time?
Are there any good metrics to measure competency of a canyon leader? The most common ones I hear, years of experience and number of canyon descents, give little indication as to one's true ability to lead.

Yes!

Yes to all.

I think you answered all your own questions.

except the most important one: there are no metrics to measure competency. I know beginners who become competent quickly, and very experienced canyoneers who have yet to become competent.

The most important is to canyoneer with more-competent people, and a variety of them.

Tom

[TommyBoy]

Also regardless of who you go with watch out for yourself and don't assume that the "competent" leader knows what he is doing, because even if he does mistakes can be made.

[SRG]

Questions for the canyon gurus out there:

I don't qualify, but I'm gonna answer your question anyway. Hope you don't mind.

Attend classes? Go with more experienced people?

Yes, do this.
I didn't do this and I have a great time learning to canyoneer. It forced me to learn everything inside and out. For the first 20 or so canyons that I did, I pored over multiple beta sources for long periods of time for each one. I made my own map of each canyon. I take it slow and never bite off more than I can chew and I really enjoy figuring it out.
I did have a friend hurt herself because I overlooked one basic safety precaution that I likely wouldn't have if I had some formal training and canyoneering mentors. This one incident made all the fun of learning on my own not worth it. I highly recommend some classes and trips w/ experienced people so that you get some thorough and comprehensive canyoneering knowledge.

Someone else said... Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement.

[DesertDuke]

Reading Bogley posts has been very humbling for me and has knocked me down about 10 notches in my own mind. I thought myself semi-competent in several Bogley areas until I saw all the info and beta on here. But, it hasn't kept me from heading out anyway. Perhaps not that smart but lets face it.....shouldn't all outings have a competent leader? Unfortunately for me and my group it is nothing but solid mediocrity.

[Iceaxe]

"beginner friendly with competent leadership".

I believe the above is a politically correct term I started adding to my beta a few years back that has kinda caught on.

The non-politically correct term is "Girlfriend Canyon", which means a canyon you can take your girlfriend through and dazzle her with your awesomeness if you know what the hell you are doing.




Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Byron]

Oh my God, that's friggin' FUNNY!!! I'd say that if you get to that point, the competence and confidence that comes with it are pretty much there. Just make sure you're geared up and double check your stuff...I like to move quick but slow down when rigging.

[ilipichicuma]

Definitely going out with more experienced people. This is how I learned. My friend got me into it, and it was probably a year or two of doing canyons with him before I ever went without him, leading a canyon on my own. Now I do it all the time.

[Kuya]

Questions for the canyon gurus out there:
I frequently read descriptions of canyons as being "beginner friendly with competent leadership". At what point did you feel you were a competent canyon leader?
Everyone starts out incompetent. Through experience, training, and maybe a close call or two you were able to progress toward and eventually become competent. What did you do to minimize risks while progressing? Attend classes? Go with more experienced people? Be an extremely lucky person? Did you do everything you suggest or are these things you wish you would have done/would have known at the time?
Are there any good metrics to measure competency of a canyon leader? The most common ones I hear, years of experience and number of canyon descents, give little indication as to one's true ability to lead.

YES! All of it.

I am by no means a PRO canyoneer. I have TONS to learn still. But when i started a few years ago, I considered myself the leader. I was organizing the trips and such. At the time I barely knew how to rappel with an ATC. and I didn't own any kind of gear. So... what I did was invite people along that did have the gear and the skills!! I read books, beta, bogley, yahoo group site, ACA site, Climb-utah, CanyoneeringUSA, etc. and when I went on trips I made it a point to learn as much as I could from the "experts" that had invited along. My little canyoneering team did the easy canyons first. Beta was our best friend and we picked canyons that had fun rappels and had easy logistics. Canyons like Little wild horse, Baptist Draw, Medieval Chamber, Tierdrop, Keyhole, Subway, and Pinecreek were the canyons we started off with.

It wasn't long after when I started taking classes on my own (BSA climbing training, Canyoneering Boot Camps,Free Totem Classes at Out-n-back, Free Canyoneering intro courses from Dark Horse Leadership, etc). After all of that training (ESPECIALLY North Wash Outfitters Canyoneering Bootcamp), I found that I was now teaching those "experts" that I use to invite along, how to really do canyoneering safely.

Like I said, I still have TONS to learn. I am barely starting to get to know some of the more prominent members of the Canyoneering Community, but I look forward to the times I do get to meet and learn from those much more skilled than I.

All in all, I guess this post is all about advocating the need for canyoneers to get TRAINING! If you are lucky enough to hang out with those that have been doing it for 15-30 years, that is awesome. they can probably teach you all you need to know. If not, go find a class and take it.

[jaredr]

The most important is to canyoneer with more-competent people, and a variety of them.

I highly recommend some classes and trips w/ experienced people so that you get some thorough and comprehensive canyoneering knowledge.

All in all, I guess this post is all about advocating the need for canyoneers to get TRAINING! If you are lucky enough to hang out with those that have been doing it for 15-30 years, that is awesome. they can probably teach you all you need to know. If not, go find a class and take it.

Definitely going out with more experienced people.

Hmm, there seems to be a recurring theme in the responses:
1) Go with a lot of people who are better than you.
2) Get training.

Someone else said... Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement.

Unfortunately for me and my group it is nothing but solid mediocrity.

These are exactly the things I want to avoid. I don't really know anybody who enjoys canyoneering as much as I do and certainly don't know anyone who has much experience. I guess the best way to overcome this is to meet and go canyoneering with some of you gurus.
I know there are meetup groups that go often - just kidding - I know there are rendezvous where the most experienced attend so I'll try to attend them in the future. Until then I'll PM a few of you fellow Utah Valleyites and see if you have room for one more on your next adventure.
Thanks for the advice and suggestions!

[Iceaxe]

Commonsense is the key to success.

When I began canyoneering there was no beta, no forums, no interwebs, no guru's. We survived and had a great time by using large amounts of commonsense and a large portion of respect for the wilderness we were exploring.

YMMV

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Kuya]

Commonsense is the key to success.

When I began canyoneering there was no beta, no forums, no interwebs, no guru's. We survived and had a great time by using large amounts of commonsense and a large portion of respect for the wilderness we were exploring.

YMMV

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

But Ice, how much climbing experience did you have before you started canyoneering?

[Iceaxe]

But Ice, how much climbing experience did you have before you started canyoneering?

I had very little climbing experience when I started canyoneering. I had done a little climbing, just for giggles, in high school 10 years prior to discovering canyons. I accidently discovered slot canyons when I bought a boat and started spending a lot of time on Lake Powell in the early 80's. The first few slot canyons I walked through just amazed me, and they still do.

My background coming into canyons was not a climbing background, unless you count climbing in and out of race cars and on and off umbrella girls.