Alcatraz Rescue

[hank moon]

On the 'white' end are canyons like Constrychnine; where a bolt once existed, but the drop is simple to rig from a nearby tree. Groove free I might add, no disrespect to my friend Cristina.

<smudging the white>

a) slings kill trees (eventually)
b) a groove-free opportunity may be offered, but not accepted

[Bootboy]

God remove dead man not drilled bolts!

and if you are one of those cowards off course you will not tell

but if you are a MAN you are suppose to tell and take responsability of your actions having consequences on the lives of people!!!!

Nice to see you again.

I've seen hangers ripped right out of walls by flood debris in several canyons. In all instances where I've seen this, there have been two hangers, with one surviving the flood. But what happens when you come upon that single bolt anchor that's been blown out by a monsoon flood? I can think of several canyons off the top of my head with single bolt anchors right in the water course. Not at all an unreasonable possibility.

I'm not sure how removing bolts makes me a coward... Maybe you should just go prepared and be ready for whatever lies ahead. I thought you were an expert...

[MrAdam]

I am thinking these bolts might be the ones people are talking about, but not sure ?? They were the only bolts I saw in Alcatraz last October. They were on the left side LDC of pothole followed by a "wall"

here is what it looked like last fall
Attachment 70185

And, no, we didn't set that anchor. It looks like a webbing mess. Obviously, it could be different now.
This was an image grab from a video. I notice all the rope grooves that indicate the rap ring wasn't always extended the way it is in this photo. Also, the black webbing sort of makes this look like an American Death Triangle..

Edit: I re-watched the video and I am not sure if this is the right place. It is in Alcatraz just about a 25-30 foot drop that I don't think I would wanna downclimb.

The rap started from a pothole with a lip that lead to the drop and ended in another pothole that was exited by a crack on the right side LDC.

Nope, these are not the bolts I was speaking of. I believe Tom is correct and this is the semi-keeper pothole rap. If so, the existing anchor was rock wedged in the V slot up canyon. I did not see these bolts when we went thru.

All of the other bolts mentioned were further down canyon in the darker narrows.

[hesse15]

Nice to see you again.
I've seen hangers ripped right out of walls by flood debris in several canyons. In all instances where I've seen this, there have been two hangers, with one surviving the flood. But what happens when you come upon that single bolt anchor that's been blown out by a monsoon flood? I can think of several canyons off the top of my head with single bolt anchors right in the water course. Not at all an unreasonable possibility. .

sometime happened when bolts are not placed correctly, Tom fixed that in some canyons in Zion if I recall.bolt are suppose to be placed high enough out of the water course allowing not been flooded and no rope groves! If you find a questionable bolt is good pratcice if you know how to to replace or let know the community so somebody (Tom) could make it safer.

I'm not sure how removing bolts makes me a coward... Maybe you should just go prepared and be ready for whatever lies ahead. I thought you were an expert...

doing anonymously like the guy in costrichnine: if you remove just have the courage to tell you do and where.....
i see a little provocation here.....:I am not an "expert" but i can stem in bikini with a big smile for long time until the perfect light for picture is found.....

probably Byron and ScottP knows to what i am referring to (disclosure:they do not wear bikinis when they do)!!!!!!

you know canyoneering is like going to the beach,

• just another place to wear your bikini!!

[Slot Machine]

a) slings kill trees (eventually)

I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?

We did not girth hitch the tree in C9, so it is not being strangled. The webbing extended from the tree lays across the top of the cliff in at that drop, absorbing most of the weight. It would take many hundreds of canyoneers rapping from the tree to even mar the bark on the back of that tree. I'm not an arborist, but I don't see how canyoneers could even come close to killing that tree.

But you are right about your second point. I bet our tree anchor is gone and someone is leaving a groove as we speak.

Like placing them, to pull bolts, you have to know what you are doing to do a good job (I don't know if you do or not). Otherwise you can make a mess. If you haven't pulled them, it would be better to take someone who knew how to do a good of doing so. As said, I don't know if you know how to pull them or not; you may indeed know how, but am just mentioning this in case you don't.

Good point. I do not know how, but will do my homework before taking on the task. I'm pretty sure I can mix epoxy with sand without getting it everywhere.

[Bootboy]

sometime happened when bolts are not placed correctly, Tom fixed that in some canyons in Zion if I recall.bolt are suppose to be placed high enough out of the water course allowing not been flooded and no rope groves! If you find a questionable bolt is good pratcice if you know how to to replace or let know the community so somebody (Tom) could make it safer.

doing anonymously like the guy in costrichnine: if you remove just have the courage to tell you do and where.....
i see a little provocation here.....:I am not an "expert" but i can stem in bikini with a big smile for long time until the perfect light for picture is found.....

probably Byron and ScottP knows to what i am referring to (disclosure:they do not wear bikinis when they do)!!!!!!

you know canyoneering is like going to the beach,

• just another place to wear your bikini!!

The fact is that canyons are voids where there USED to be rock. They are dynamic. They get deeper and wider with time. Rock can be here today, gone tomorrow. Now, I realize that this happens almost imperceptibly slowly, but it does happen. There's a pothole in Kolob creek that blew out between last year and this year. Just a small hole, but 2 potholes are now joined by a small hole about 8"x10". Proof that these things do happen.

In some canyons, it's impossible to get bolts out of the water course. Many canyons can and do flash well over the height of a person, several times every year.

If I want to go to the beach, I do so. If I want to go explore a canyon, I go to a canyon, not beach.

[ratagonia]

I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?

Ah, grasshopper. So young, so little longevity in the sport.

Rock Climbers at popular crags noticed quite some time ago that they were killing all the trees at the top, and it became standard protocol to install bolts for topropes and for rappels, rather than kill off the remaining trees.

In Zion, where the high-traffic canyons are, there are many examples of trees that were stressed, that are no longer used. Behunin, Spry, Engelstead, Keyhole, Birch Hollow immediately come to mind. Just the foot-traffic at the base of the trees tends to erode the soil, compress the soil, and destroy the roots. However, in Zion, we place bolts to keep from killing the trees; which I do not consider an option elsewhere.

Tom

[hank moon]

I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?

I've seen it happen at popular climbing areas (Gunks in NY, Sunset Rock in TN). There is a large tree in Water Canyon that until 2011 was used as an anchor. Bolts were placed that year to direct traffic away from the tree, which was on the road to oblivion. How long a tree takes to die depends on many factors. One of them is traffic around the tree, feet trampling roots, removing soil around roots, etc. This factor is especially important with trees that are not deeply rooted (relatively shallow soil over bedrock), which is the case at Sunset and the Gunks. I'm not familiar with the current situation in C9 as I haven't been there in years. In any case, tree death via slings is not only influenced by how the tree is slung (strangling, bark removal, etc.) but also from the traffic directed to the tree by its use as an anchorage.

[ratagonia]

Good point. I do not know how, but will do my homework before taking on the task. I'm pretty sure I can mix epoxy with sand without getting it everywhere.

I never found the sand-mixed-with-epoxy to work at all. Fill with epoxy, smooth with a wet rock, gently press sand into the surface.

Lasts long enough. Some in Englestead I took out are still not findable even by me 10 years later.

Tom

[deagol]

Is this at the pothole, near the top of the canyon? V slot into a 10' Diameter pothole, then a 30' drop (rappel) on the other side?

Used to be anchored by a rock in the V slot.

Inquiring minds want to know!!

I ask because it looks like the rope grooves from the anchor back in the V-slot.

Tom

p.s. - nice looking rope!

Tom,

Yes, that sounds accurate. and Yes, it's an Imlay rope

Ah, grasshopper. So young, so little longevity in the sport.

Rock Climbers at popular crags noticed quite some time ago that they were killing all the trees at the top, and it became standard protocol to install bolts for topropes and for rappels, rather than kill off the remaining trees.

In Zion, where the high-traffic canyons are, there are many examples of trees that were stressed, that are no longer used. Behunin, Spry, Engelstead, Keyhole, Birch Hollow immediately come to mind. Just the foot-traffic at the base of the trees tends to erode the soil, compress the soil, and destroy the roots. However, in Zion, we place bolts to keep from killing the trees; which I do not consider an option elsewhere.

Tom

That is interesting, and sad...

[deagol]

Nope, these are not the bolts I was speaking of. I believe Tom is correct and this is the semi-keeper pothole rap. If so, the existing anchor was rock wedged in the V slot up canyon. I did not see these bolts when we went thru.

All of the other bolts mentioned were further down canyon in the darker narrows.

Wow, it just shoes how bolts come and then go and than come again. I do not recall seeing additional bolts beyond this point, but things can change, as we are finding out.

[ratagonia]

Wow, it just shoes how bolts come and then go and than come again. I do not recall seeing additional bolts beyond this point, but things can change, as we are finding out.

BUT, once published in a guidebook, they become sacred objects that cannot be removed...


according to some.

Tom

[Brian in SLC]

I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?

Ferne Clyffe and Giant City in Southern Illinois both have large areas closed to climbing from a strong "no bolt" ethic that led folks to use the trees there for anchors. The foot traffic especially is probably what contributed to the trees dying off (shallow roots over the rocks) and the fragile topside ecology of these cliffs, supporting several endangered species, suffered from the damage. Easy to to see if you're ever in that area. On cliffs that have been closed, you'll see the trees and topsoil right to the edge. On open areas, its denuded to bare rock to a distance of 40 feet in some places.

[Byron]

I am not an "expert" but i can stem in bikini with a big smile for long time until the perfect light for picture is found.....

Stemming in a bikini? Oh my...I think I may be able to tolerate the noise for an eyeful of that!

[Bootboy]

Stemming in a bikini? Oh my...I think I may be able to tolerate the noise for an eyeful of that!

Even then...

[jamestkirk]

huh, guess nobody is interested anymore in whether or not the gear is returned. it's been a few weeks now and no request from the descent party. gee, i wonder why.

in response to the bolt debate that is raging on, and on, i retrieved a locker that day which was on the upstream canyon right 'mystery bolt'. i too am perplexed about their purpose. i'd almost go as far as to say that i saw a faint dust trail under the bolts that would indicate they were recently placed. i dislike useless redundant bolts. i'd like to clean them out of there. maybe even the one with a shitty spinner hangar above that drop with easy natural pro options (uh oh, here we go again).



these newfangled lockers are junk! all this twisting and pulling. yea right, real easy to do with one finger, sure, junk! it's kinda like toothbrushes. every company is dying to come up with a useless gimmick to sell more of their product. that one is a leaver biner fer sure!

Kirk Out

[hesse15]

these newfangled lockers are junk! all this twisting and pulling. yea right, real easy to do with one finger, sure, junk! it's kinda like toothbrushes. every company is dying to come up with a useless gimmick to sell more of their product. that one is a leaver biner fer sure!

i do not like autolocker in canyons they jam with sand ,but are nice in multipitch when you belay up somebody from a bad angle!

[ratagonia]

huh, guess nobody is interested anymore in whether or not the gear is returned. it's been a few weeks now and no request from the descent party. gee, i wonder why.

in response to the bolt debate that is raging on, and on, i retrieved a locker that day which was on the upstream canyon right 'mystery bolt'. i too am perplexed about their purpose. i'd almost go as far as to say that i saw a faint dust trail under the bolts that would indicate they were recently placed. i dislike useless redundant bolts. i'd like to clean them out of there. maybe even the one with a shitty spinner hangar above that drop with easy natural pro options (uh oh, here we go again).



these newfangled lockers are junk! all this twisting and pulling. yea right, real easy to do with one finger, sure, junk! it's kinda like toothbrushes. every company is dying to come up with a useless gimmick to sell more of their product. that one is a leaver biner fer sure!

Kirk Out

I think it is appropriate to leave the old old old bolts, if "safe" as they are signs of the passage of the ancients. Problem is, a lot of them are not particularly safe. That one might pull out easily with a little Cats Paw.

Newfangled? Seems like the first twistlocs were about 1987. Some of our readers were not even born then. They work great for climbing. Don't work for canyoneering. One way you can tell climbers when you meet them in a canyon.

T

[Slot Machine]

I think it is appropriate to leave the old old old bolts, if "safe" as they are signs of the passage of the ancients. T

Seems like an odd statement. I'm fascinated by the nuances in the Jones' Handbook of Bolt Pulling Ethics.

Neither quality nor antiquity seem like reasons to leave them. Being necessary seems like the only legit reason.

Could you please elaborate?

[ratagonia]

Seems like an odd statement. I'm fascinated by the nuances in the Jones' Handbook of Bolt Pulling Ethics.

Neither quality nor antiquity seem like reasons to leave them. Being necessary seems like the only legit reason.

Could you please elaborate?

Old bolts tell a story, a story that is lost when they are pulled.

The dividing line is about 1995, a bit before I started canyoneering. Anything placed before I saw the canyon was probably legit - anything after (except if placed by me, sometimes) is probably illegit.

(You're not expecting logic and consistency from me, are you? )

This particular one in Alcatraz tells the story of an early descender who was brave enough to descend a crazy canyon, but not skilled in the ways of the Canyon Gods, instead choosing to place a bolt on an easily-assisted downclimb.

Tom