Alcatraz Rescue

[hesse15]

i'm getting there. you know, it takes 3 posts to be able to post pictures.

let me say one thing though...accidents happen. i have nothing against solo trips going bad or groups that encounter sudden weather changes or unexpected conditions in the canyon or just the random slip and fall. and that's what we have here, a slip and fall.

it is my opinion that the entire debacle could have been avoided if this group better educated themselves of the dangers involved with this route and chose a route more appropriate to their ability level.

Kirk Out

agree ,but all of us had our smaller or bigger mishap before learning the proper way.
what i cannot stand are the REPEAT OFFENDERS, those are equal to serial killers.

that weekend after weekend endangered lives of unaware beginners!
and there are bunch out there that are just perfecting their plans now with the coming winter!
just because they heard that black hole is a "to do" in january,but they do not own anything more that a shortie and not planning to spend any money to fix it!!!!!
and off course unless they bring 10 newbies with them they are not happy!!

[Dev]

third, it really gets tiresome witnessing over and over people who don't respect the danger involved in descending these canyons.

why bother posting in this thread? well, the trash and debris left behind after these events for one. also the bolting that occurs is always a bummer. and lastly, the time, money and effort put into the rescue. time and effort that could be completely avoided if only the party being rescued had put more time into gaining the skills and knowledge necessary to descend a canyon like Alcatraz.

Kirk Out

How do you know how skilled or prepared these people were? Anybody can slip the most experience person on here can slip! This guy did a good thing by posting his experience for us to learn from. We shouldn't be so harsh and quick to judge.

[Mountaineer]

I'd guess there are more per capita in canyoneering. I won't make many friends on this website by saying this, but climbers follows the safe principles of S.C.R.E. anchoring far better than canyoneers, mainly because climbers bolt more. And climbing has a better rating system to express the difficulties of a climb so you know when a climb is "above your abilities".

Not sure climbers follow principles, in general, better than canyoneers. I've found while climbing, some of the bolt stations are not setup ideally (EARNEST) for example.

True, climbing requires a constant focus and attention to technique detail.

Canyoneering covers a diverse amount terrain. It requires a multitude of skills (navigation, climbing, anchor building, exposure). I've seen it attempted and viewed as 'technical hiking', so sometimes people may just go on a hike and not realize other equipment and skills needed. In sport/trad climbing you always need a rope and harness. Many times in canyoneering you are not roped up, so a simple slip/fall can be fatal. Even a sprained ankle can lead to a required rescue for survival.

The rating system, while it has flaws, is more than adequate to warn or prepare the person or group for wandering out. At a minimum, it is enough to ask more questions or read the entire description. A problem may be that people don't know one exists.

Training (rescue skills), physical fitness, and experience/wisdom can all minimize a canyoneer's risk for injury, rescue, or death.

[jamestkirk]

my 3 friends and i descended Alcatraz on thursday oct. 3rd. now, we all know that the slot canyons are the sewer pipes of the desert. so when we started seeing power/granola bar wrappers, well, they could have been washed down. who knows if that stuff came from this event. but we kept seeing more and more. some partially consumed items too and a rather fresh looking apple.whatever.

but then we ran into more trash. construction type plastic hard hats, red and white and their associated parts. farther down there was a medium sized camelback pack in the mud. then there were some odds and ends like knives, pens and camera cases. further along there was a big green and black north face pack with a 60m rope! looked to be 11mil! there was a bunch of other stuff in the pack but we didn't feel like going through it at the time. i believe in that area is where we also found some plastic knee pads bound together and several pieces of clothing. i must say that the strangest thing i've found in a slot is cumber bun. yes, a tuxedo cumber bun!

we couldn't clean up and take out all of the stuff. we did take the packs out. not easy when the slot gets tight as you all know. we had been traveling small and light to accommodate the squeeze and shuffle so we took what we could. i'm also wondering about two bolts that looked to be drilled recently. they were placed canyon right in a wider spot with a sandy bottom where there is no rap. i grabbed a new fangled locker that was left on one hanger. couldn't figure out what their purpose was.

when my companions got home they went through the packs. it's good to be prepared, but man, enough is enough when you have to negotiate slots of those dimensions. like i said, a 60m rope when all you need is 50 feet. multiple knives(sometimes a good thing to have), a water pump/iodine tablets, pitons but no hammer, the list goes on and on. there were also 2 cameras. one damaged beyond use and another still in good shape. we pulled the cards out and plugged them in. i found out why i found that cumberbun...i believe this is that party:





KIRK OUT

[Slot Machine]

KIRK OUT

^^ Now THAT is content!! ^^ Putting the snarky comments into context helps A LOT.

Best. Post. Ever. Well done!

*hands Kirk a cigar*

[ratagonia]

my 3 friends and i descended Alcatraz on thursday oct. 3rd. now, we all know that the slot canyons are the sewer pipes of the desert. so when we started seeing power/granola bar wrappers, well, they could have been washed down. who knows if that stuff came from this event. but we kept seeing more and more. some partially consumed items too and a rather fresh looking apple.whatever.

...

KIRK OUT

I'm sorry. I am not following. Bizzare stuff. What episode are we talking about????

http://www.startrek.com/database_article_navigator

Tom

[hesse15]

I'm sorry. I am not following. Bizzare stuff. What episode are we talking about????

http://www.startrek.com/database_article_navigator

Tom

no Tom I think the pictures are from the camera that the guy Kirk found from the party that got the guy stuck and abandon him in the canyon overnight alone ( that is pretty sad)
very bizarre definitely bizarre!!!!
new bolts?why leave behind the wrappers,
11mm that is Euro style!!!!!! must be a beast to carry trough
and what the guy has on his chest?

[Mountaineer]

...but then we ran into more trash. construction type plastic hard hats, red and white and their associated parts...that the strangest thing i've found in a slot is cumber bun. yes, a tuxedo cumber bun!

we couldn't clean up and take out all of the stuff.

Trash, with more bolt holes and bolts in Alcatraz? Ugh. I loved the canyon the way I found it last year.

Seems obvious that the same group in the pictures left most (or all) of what you found behind.

There may be good reason they left gear/trash (unanticipated events), but I agree with the Captain on challenging their initial judgement. You take minimal gear for a canyon like Alcatraz.

[jamestkirk]

James T Kirk is headed over to the Roost this afternoon with the same friends for a nice camp and descent down Larry Canyon tomorrow. who knows what we'll encounter this time.

i'll let this tempest brew....see ya...



sure glad the anchor held!!

[Erik B]

why did you think descending Alcatraz in a tuxedo was a wise move?

Canyoneering CAN be a gentleman's sport:
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...-Canyon-Attire



...though I'll concede that $8 DI wool suits get pretty heavy and cumbersome when wet...and maybe not ideal in mae westie scenarios

[deagol]

BUSTED!

Nice job, Captain.

This reminds me of those running races where people dress up in costumes. Are people getting cocky nowadays?

[deagol]

....
and what the guy has on his chest?

Maybe it's a pre-cursor to the Borg ?

[Eric Holden]

Maybe it's a pre-cursor to the Borg ?

Radio Chest Harness. Possible SAR?

[deagol]

Radio Chest Harness. Possible SAR?

Yeah, that looks like it could be a radio chest harness, but no way SAR.

SAR wouldn't leave garbage all over or wear a tuxedo into a canyon. The costume seems like a gimmick of some sort (notice the bow tie). As for the borg-like radio harness, I would hate having anything like that on me in a tight claustrophobic place like Alcatraz.

[jamestkirk]

my friends and i had a great time out at The Roost yesterday with a fun and pleasant descent down Larry Canyon. great warm october weather. but raining cats and dogs today in moab.

we talked a lot about what we found in Alcatraz and that party's descision making process. we had fun using some gear abandoned in the packs we found(we backed up and extended one of the anchors in Larry with that stuff). my friends informed me there was some stuff left in those packs that would have been handy during the group's nightime egress from the canyon, the headlamp for one!!

there's been talk about the chest harness one member wore.. we found one of those little Talkabout radios in a pack. mind you, those packs were found while still in the slot. not somewhere in the open sections down canyon or on the exit. i believe the the stuck canyoneer was rescued down canyon?

I've run across a great article written on Tom's Canyoneering site. It pretty much sums up my feelings about that event and why i've decided to post on this thread. Quoted from: http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/utah/...thics-a-style/

ETHICS is about how what you do effects other people and the environment we all share. In canyoneering, ethics is largely about what you leave behind.

STYLE is about demonstrating competence and taste. Style is about respect. Style is more of a personal matter, but the canyoneering community has an interest in promoting good style (largely because good ethics is part of good style).

here's another shot of a member of that descent team. the gloves he is wearing were abandoned:


Kirk Out

[Sombeech]

Wow I would hate to have my camera found by somebody else with photos that didn't show me in the best light

But an interesting insight to what happened nonetheless.

I've had my share of embarrassing photos when I was trying to have fun and be a goofball.

[Eric Holden]

I bear my embarrassing photos like a badge of honor....

[domo617]

Yeah, that looks like it could be a radio chest harness, but no way SAR.

SAR wouldn't leave garbage all over or wear a tuxedo into a canyon. The costume seems like a gimmick of some sort (notice the bow tie). As for the borg-like radio harness, I would hate having anything like that on me in a tight claustrophobic place like Alcatraz.

It’s a radio chest harness, I use the same one for ski patrol.

[Sandstone Addiction]

we had fun using some gear abandoned in the packs we found(we backed up and extended one of the anchors in Larry with that stuff). my friends informed me there was some stuff left in those packs that would have been handy during the group's nightime egress from the canyon, the headlamp for one!!

there's been talk about the chest harness one member wore.. we found one of those little Talkabout radios in a pack. mind you, those packs were found while still in the slot. not somewhere in the open sections down canyon or on the exit. i believe the the stuck canyoneer was rescued down canyon?

Why don't you just return their gear?

[Sombeech]

Yeah, I think it would be nice to get their gear back.