Results 141 to 160 of 160
Thread: Alcatraz Rescue
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10-21-2013, 08:45 PM #141
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10-21-2013 08:45 PM # ADS
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10-21-2013, 11:19 PM #142
Nice to see you again.
I've seen hangers ripped right out of walls by flood debris in several canyons. In all instances where I've seen this, there have been two hangers, with one surviving the flood. But what happens when you come upon that single bolt anchor that's been blown out by a monsoon flood? I can think of several canyons off the top of my head with single bolt anchors right in the water course. Not at all an unreasonable possibility.
I'm not sure how removing bolts makes me a coward... Maybe you should just go prepared and be ready for whatever lies ahead. I thought you were an expert...
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10-22-2013, 08:06 AM #143
Nope, these are not the bolts I was speaking of. I believe Tom is correct and this is the semi-keeper pothole rap. If so, the existing anchor was rock wedged in the V slot up canyon. I did not see these bolts when we went thru.
All of the other bolts mentioned were further down canyon in the darker narrows.
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10-22-2013, 09:00 AM #144
sometime happened when bolts are not placed correctly, Tom fixed that in some canyons in Zion if I recall.bolt are suppose to be placed high enough out of the water course allowing not been flooded and no rope groves! If you find a questionable bolt is good pratcice if you know how to to replace or let know the community so somebody (Tom) could make it safer.
doing anonymously like the guy in costrichnine: if you remove just have the courage to tell you do and where.....
i see a little provocation here.....:I am not an "expert" but i can stem in bikini with a big smile for long time until the perfect light for picture is found.....
probably Byron and ScottP knows to what i am referring to (disclosure:they do not wear bikinis when they do)!!!!!!
you know canyoneering is like going to the beach,
- just another place to wear your bikini!!
Last edited by hesse15; 10-22-2013 at 09:11 AM. Reason: try to fix emoticom
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10-22-2013, 10:00 AM #145
I've never seen a sling kill a tree. Could you site an example?
We did not girth hitch the tree in C9, so it is not being strangled. The webbing extended from the tree lays across the top of the cliff in at that drop, absorbing most of the weight. It would take many hundreds of canyoneers rapping from the tree to even mar the bark on the back of that tree. I'm not an arborist, but I don't see how canyoneers could even come close to killing that tree.
But you are right about your second point. I bet our tree anchor is gone and someone is leaving a groove as we speak.
Good point. I do not know how, but will do my homework before taking on the task. I'm pretty sure I can mix epoxy with sand without getting it everywhere.THE MOST TALKED ABOUT CANYONEERING TRIP OF 2017 - WEST CANYON VIA HELICOPTER.
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10-22-2013, 10:05 AM #146
The fact is that canyons are voids where there USED to be rock. They are dynamic. They get deeper and wider with time. Rock can be here today, gone tomorrow. Now, I realize that this happens almost imperceptibly slowly, but it does happen. There's a pothole in Kolob creek that blew out between last year and this year. Just a small hole, but 2 potholes are now joined by a small hole about 8"x10". Proof that these things do happen.
In some canyons, it's impossible to get bolts out of the water course. Many canyons can and do flash well over the height of a person, several times every year.
If I want to go to the beach, I do so. If I want to go explore a canyon, I go to a canyon, not beach.
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10-22-2013, 10:17 AM #147
Ah, grasshopper. So young, so little longevity in the sport.
Rock Climbers at popular crags noticed quite some time ago that they were killing all the trees at the top, and it became standard protocol to install bolts for topropes and for rappels, rather than kill off the remaining trees.
In Zion, where the high-traffic canyons are, there are many examples of trees that were stressed, that are no longer used. Behunin, Spry, Engelstead, Keyhole, Birch Hollow immediately come to mind. Just the foot-traffic at the base of the trees tends to erode the soil, compress the soil, and destroy the roots. However, in Zion, we place bolts to keep from killing the trees; which I do not consider an option elsewhere.
Tom
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10-22-2013, 10:18 AM #148
I've seen it happen at popular climbing areas (Gunks in NY, Sunset Rock in TN). There is a large tree in Water Canyon that until 2011 was used as an anchor. Bolts were placed that year to direct traffic away from the tree, which was on the road to oblivion. How long a tree takes to die depends on many factors. One of them is traffic around the tree, feet trampling roots, removing soil around roots, etc. This factor is especially important with trees that are not deeply rooted (relatively shallow soil over bedrock), which is the case at Sunset and the Gunks. I'm not familiar with the current situation in C9 as I haven't been there in years. In any case, tree death via slings is not only influenced by how the tree is slung (strangling, bark removal, etc.) but also from the traffic directed to the tree by its use as an anchorage.
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10-22-2013, 10:21 AM #149
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10-22-2013, 10:21 AM #150
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10-22-2013, 10:23 AM #151
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10-22-2013, 10:26 AM #152
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10-22-2013, 03:07 PM #153
Ferne Clyffe and Giant City in Southern Illinois both have large areas closed to climbing from a strong "no bolt" ethic that led folks to use the trees there for anchors. The foot traffic especially is probably what contributed to the trees dying off (shallow roots over the rocks) and the fragile topside ecology of these cliffs, supporting several endangered species, suffered from the damage. Easy to to see if you're ever in that area. On cliffs that have been closed, you'll see the trees and topsoil right to the edge. On open areas, its denuded to bare rock to a distance of 40 feet in some places.
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10-22-2013, 07:42 PM #154
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10-22-2013, 11:01 PM #155
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10-25-2013, 01:46 PM #156
huh, guess nobody is interested anymore in whether or not the gear is returned. it's been a few weeks now and no request from the descent party. gee, i wonder why.
in response to the bolt debate that is raging on, and on, i retrieved a locker that day which was on the upstream canyon right 'mystery bolt'. i too am perplexed about their purpose. i'd almost go as far as to say that i saw a faint dust trail under the bolts that would indicate they were recently placed. i dislike useless redundant bolts. i'd like to clean them out of there. maybe even the one with a shitty spinner hangar above that drop with easy natural pro options (uh oh, here we go again).
these newfangled lockers are junk! all this twisting and pulling. yea right, real easy to do with one finger, sure, junk! it's kinda like toothbrushes. every company is dying to come up with a useless gimmick to sell more of their product. that one is a leaver biner fer sure!
Kirk Out
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10-25-2013, 03:40 PM #157
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10-25-2013, 04:31 PM #158
I think it is appropriate to leave the old old old bolts, if "safe" as they are signs of the passage of the ancients. Problem is, a lot of them are not particularly safe. That one might pull out easily with a little Cats Paw.
Newfangled? Seems like the first twistlocs were about 1987. Some of our readers were not even born then. They work great for climbing. Don't work for canyoneering. One way you can tell climbers when you meet them in a canyon.
T
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10-25-2013, 06:53 PM #159THE MOST TALKED ABOUT CANYONEERING TRIP OF 2017 - WEST CANYON VIA HELICOPTER.
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10-27-2013, 10:46 AM #160
Old bolts tell a story, a story that is lost when they are pulled.
The dividing line is about 1995, a bit before I started canyoneering. Anything placed before I saw the canyon was probably legit - anything after (except if placed by me, sometimes) is probably illegit.
(You're not expecting logic and consistency from me, are you? )
This particular one in Alcatraz tells the story of an early descender who was brave enough to descend a crazy canyon, but not skilled in the ways of the Canyon Gods, instead choosing to place a bolt on an easily-assisted downclimb.
Tom
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