Blarney and Sandthrax flashflood

[tiho]

I was part of the beer tasting and canyoneering trip as well. At this point my thoughts are with the three victims and their families. I hope they recover quickly and come back to play and see us at another beer tasting!!!!

This is not to criticize anyone - just some events that make me pretty sad. People were coming back at the destroyed campground and ended up trying to clear the campground of cars and derbies and fix the road out. About 2 hours however passed while the victims were about 15 min away from the road with insufficient help. We had so much manpower that we could have quickly carried the 3 victims out safely and, bring dry clothes and medicine to them. Instead we were thinking that the SAR team wants us out of the canyon and not to interfere. There was no SAR team. Two hours later the victims are coming out with near hypothermia, victim 1 was being carried out but victim 2 was carried out by victim 3. Lack of information, confusion and shock took the better of us and we did not provide enough assistance to the victims .. it just makes me so sad that they were 15-20 min away from the road and we left them to struggle out on their own pretty much. I know some people went in and helped but in my point of view that was not enough help.

[accadacca]

So what happened to the victims? Did I miss that part of the story? Would love to hear what happened.

[tiho]

My understanding is that two were stemming out about 30-40 feet high and slipped / fell in the raging water and sustained leg injuries. I think the third victim just sprained ankle somehow.

[Canyon Dog]

I provided a detailed account yesterday.
The 3rd injury was unknown to me. I believe that one of our guys who left to find help for the 2 injured ladies sprained his ankle while rushing out.

[Eric Holden]

For any of you that may have been involved in this, try not to take what is said here personally...ya screw up, ya get slapped around for it and learn.

+1 to this. I would say most of us have done something we shouldn't have and, through luck, we are still here to write about it on the internets. Hearing "You are so stupid! Why did you do that?!?!" Helps to beat in a lesson. If everyone said "Wow, that was cool! Check out all that water!" It would only make people go out again in the same conditions, this time with worse consequences.

[Eric Holden]

So what happened to the victims? Did I miss that part of the story? Would love to hear what happened.

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...524#post543524

[canyoncaver]

I'm no meteorologist and I would love to know how the rain clouds formed to bear down on us approximately 45 minutes after we dropped below the rim. There was not a strong wind, so an unseen storm could not have approached that quickly. All I can think is that the atmospheric conditions must have been in a state that formed rain clouds near or on top of North Wash that then dumped rain on the area for about 20-30 minutes.

I know how it happened, because I have seen it happen just like this more than a few times. The storm did not blow in from anywhere else, it formed right on top of the Henry Mtns.

Thunderstorms form when air is rapidly lifted to and above an elevation that is below the dew point. This can happen from rising warm air, which is the method that most of us are familiar with. It's hot out, the humidity is high, and moist air gets lifted to an elevation where water droplets (or in many cases, ice) must form. These water droplets are heavy and cool, so they sink rapidly. This forms the downdraft side of the convection cell. When the downdraft hits the ground, it fans out along the land surface. This is the cool, gusty wind that you feel when near (especially when about to be overrun by) a storm cloud.

In addition to this basic way that thunderstorms form, there are several other varieties. One is an orographic thunderstorm. These form as winds force moist air up the windward side of mountain range. Anyone that climbs fourteeners is familiar with this type of storm. It doesn't matter that you can't see any clouds between you and the western horizon. If the conditions are right, the storm will form right on top of you out of clear air. This is the reason that peakbaggers get up at the butt crack of dawn or before and plan on being back below treeline before noon.

This exact phenomenon happens routinely on the Henry Mtns. My observation on the Henrys is that the storms do not just rain on the Henrys. The storm often forms and then blows off the top of the Henrys and marches off to cause havoc somewhere in the surrounding area whether it be the Maidenwaters, Lake Powell, North Wash, or even the Roost. North Wash is more or less in the middle of "tornado alley" for these Henry-born storms.

On a trip to the area in April of this year, we planned on going to S. Maidenwater. The forecast was clear. As we hiked up the hill from the car, we saw the buildup happening over the Henrys. This caused us to reassess. We decided to go do something farther away from the Henrys so we went to Blarney instead. As we exited Blarney, we could see that the storm had blown off the Henrys and was headed our way. With the Henrys now clear, we drove back over and did Middle Maidenwater. As we dropped in, we could see the storm dumping on North Wash where we had just been 2 hours before.

So, you can see that a little bit of meteorological training goes a long way in making these life-or-death decisions. It is most certainly a tool that you need to have in your toolbox. I am not a meteorologist either, but educating myself on the subject has certainly helped save my bacon more than a few times. My will to live and my responsibilities to family and others requires it.

It is appalling to me that anyone would drop into a canyon with the kinds of clouds that are seen in Canyon69's photos. It does not matter if the decision was made out of recklessness or ignorance. Either way, you have made a decision to endanger yourself, your team, the SAR team, and also everyone's access to these wonderful canyons.

My only comment on meetup groups is that I find canyoneering to have plenty of danger and excitement even in a small group of competent people. I have no desire to ratchet up the risk by going with a bunch of strangers, most of them noobs, and one or two people that (maybe) know what they are doing.

[deagol]

....

Thunderstorms form when air is rapidly lifted to and above an elevation that is below the dew point. This can happen from rising warm air, which is the method that most of us are familiar with. It's hot out, the humidity is high, and moist air gets lifted to an elevation where water droplets (or in many cases, ice) must form. These water droplets are heavy and cool, so they sink rapidly. This forms the downdraft side of the convection cell. When the downdraft hits the ground, it fans out along the land surface. .....

You can see this Phenomenon occur in those cool weather time-lapse videos. The clouds don't have to come from somewhere else, they form right there in no time. Pretty cool to see.

[neumannbruce]

Meetup groups usually contain more beginners than those experienced assessing technical challenges. Everyone’s definition of experienced is going to vary, but I’d say it requires more than what people think.

I think that meeting up to go mountain biking, hiking, or bowling is vastly different than meeting up to go canyoneering or rock climbing. But the meet up websites do not discern this and the organizers/promoters probably do a very good job of painting a lets have fun picture that glosses over the inherent dangers of these activities. The new or beginner participants trust the organizers/promoters.

To conclude, it is my opinion that large groups (in general) in canyons can, may, and do create an atmosphere of security that leads to bad decision making. I would say to the individual looking to engage in these activities that mentoring is essential with canyoneering and rock climbing by someone with broad, deep, and lengthy experience. If you don’t want to be mentored but rather seek an occasional experience, it is time to hire a reputable guide service. That being said there lies moral responsibility with the organizers and the experienced participants of these groups to ensure safety of all, or do not have these types of meet ups.

[Iceaxe]

What type of ratio do these meet-up groups have of noobs vs experienced?


They should be no more than 2 novice to one experienced person. And by experienced I do not mean you took an ACA class last year and have a dozen canyons under your belt. Nothing is worse than noobs leading noobs.


FWIW: My definition of experienced is you have led (not followed) dozens of Heaps, Imlay, Kolob type canyons, you have guided young and old through dozens of easy canyons, and always brought your groups home safely.


I have been to dozens of fests (Bogley fests, Tom fests, Uutah fests, etc) and we never have these issues. Worst injury I can remember is a skinned knee, We are taking thousands of canyon hours, in hundreds of canyons. So why are these meet-up groups having issues? I don't believe it's the strangers doing canyons with strangers. At one time I was a canyon slut and doing slots with new partners every week, I know others of you have done the same thing. We didn't have these issues. So what is the deal with meet-ups? I've never done a meet-up and just curious what dynamics are different and causing problems?

[ratagonia]

Noah pleading with you to board his ark?

[ratagonia]

I think Hank really had the best approach, if people are out there being dangerous, the best idea is to reach out and help them. Bashing them and ragging da skillz not really gonna help.

I don't have so much of a problem with people going out and endangering THEMSELVES.

My issue is with people going out and endangering other people. Again. And again. And...

Tom

[mzamp]

[ratagonia]

For any of you that may have been involved in this, try not to take what is said here personally...ya screw up, ya get slapped around for it and learn. It's all good, especially that no one got hurt...most everyone on this site is really cool, even if they (and myself) gets a bit rough sometimes. Everyone is welcome, as I see lots of new members chiming in on this. Don't worry about Tom, he's a bit more bark than bite.

No.

Absolutely NOT!

The dudes that created this situation should take it VERY personally. The people that know the dudes should also take it personally to the extent of making sure these guys don't take more noobs out and get them hurt or killed.

I hear a whole lot of denial, and not a whole lot of taking responsibility.

Unfortunately, I do not have a personal relationship with the District Attorney in Garfield County or Mesa County, so yup, it's all bark. Arf arf arf!!!

Tom

[canyondevil]

Looks like they are planning on going to Ticaboo in October. Those trip reports should be interesting. http://www.meetup.com/WesternSlopeAd...ents/calendar/

[Slot Machine]

Looks like they are planning on going to Ticaboo in October. Those trip reports should be interesting. http://www.meetup.com/WesternSlopeAd...ents/calendar/

Thanks for posting this CD.

Doug, @DougInGJCO, thank you for asking permission before using my photo on your site. And thank you for giving credit below the photo. Both common courtesies in the internet world...

[Byron]

The jackass's that created this situation should take it VERY personally.

Tom

Tom, I agree with ya...and I'd bet the "leader" of this (and other) debacle feels like crap, especially when he's having to carry his new found hypothermic friend with a tweaked knee out of a mess he led them into. But there's a difference between slapping him around, givin' him a bit of grief and a full on bludgeoning.

I think "Dude, what the hell are you doing?" works a whole lot better than spitting "Moron, Idiot, Jackass, Dumb****" in his face. There's no doubt that you'll never want to hike with this guy, but I'd give him a chance...and determine for myself whether he's a fool or just had some hard luck. Certainly though...I'd make damn sure he's following ME.

If nothing else, some folks around here are learning that low, puffy, grey clouds dancing around the Henry's at 9 o'clock in the morning spells trouble.

[ratagonia]

Tom, I agree with ya...and I'd bet the "leader" of this (and other) debacle feels like crap, especially when he's having to carry his new found hypothermic friend with a tweaked knee out of a mess he led them into. But there's a difference between slapping him around, givin' him a bit of grief and a full on bludgeoning.

I think "Dude, what the hell are you doing?" works a whole lot better than spitting "Moron, Idiot, Jackass, Dumb****" in his face. There's no doubt that you'll never want to hike with this guy, but I'd give him a chance...and determine for myself whether he's a fool or just had some hard luck. Certainly though...I'd make damn sure he's following ME.

If nothing else, some folks around here are learning that low, puffy, grey clouds dancing around the Henry's at 9 o'clock in the morning spells trouble.

Byron, instructing me on civility??? What has the world come to!





But your point is well-taken, Byron. Even if the messenger is ... unusual.

Tom

[ratagonia]

These are not guided trips the people that go on these trips assume the risk and are ultimately responsible for their own safety as it should be.

Isn't this an "all-comers" event? My impression is that you guys have a couple of 'experienced' people that take large groups of beginners out.

True beginners do not have the ability to assume the risk. They have no way of assessing the leadership of the events. Ultimately, they do not have responsibility for their own safety, they rely on the expertise of the 'couple of experienced people' who are nominally in charge, and upon the good judgment of the meetup group organizer.

Now, you may not see it this way; but I think this is a statement of the reality of the situation.

Up in Salt Lake City a few years back, there was an interesting lawsuit kinda related to this situation. Guy invited a gal out on a date to go rock climbing, purporting to know how to do it, to be 'an expert'. He set up a top rope, with the rope just running through the webbing, no rings or carabiners. She fell to the ground got messed up, sued, won. The fact that the guy was married trying to get some action on the side probably did not help his case with a Salt Lake jury.

In that case, it was clear that he had no clue what he was doing, as toproping directly through the sling is CLEARLY wrong.

In these cases, the liability is somewhat less clear. But I can assure you, someone ends up in a wheelchair, you'll end up in court. Juries are sympathetic to people in wheelchairs.

Tom