Arizona man rescued after falling 100 feet in Zion NP

[lucach]

I definitely think it's possible.

I don't think it's possible, for the same reason that having Zero Driving Accidents is not possible.
It's just a matter of statistics, mixed with inexperience, stupidity and bad luck.

This article http://www.kcsg.com/view/full_story/...re_local_news1 says: "Witnesses reported that in another slot canyon, they advised the victim that he should be tied in near the edge. In this instance, the victim was not tied in at the time of his fall."

So it was not lack of technical training or lack of experience... it was overconfidence that caused the accident!

I experienced a very similar accident happen to a friend of mine. This friend is one of the most experienced and recognized canyoneers in Europe, yet a few years ago he was taking pictures of a multistage 500ft drop I was rappeling when he decided to climb up some rock near the edge and unexpectedly slid and started rolling down... it was the guy stationed at the anchor who grabbed him by the harness just before he went off the 500ft drop. My friend walked away with just bruises and bloody hands... but one second delay and he would have been dead.

Anything that will not kill you WILL NOT make you stronger but WILL make you wiser! As my friend did, hopefully this guy will too learn from his mistake... Maybe other people reading about his accident will learn too, but I'm betting we'll never get Zero Accidents in canyoneering... and we'll never get Zero Accidents in driving either.

[dlofting]

I don't think it's possible, for the same reason that having Zero Driving Accidents is not possible.
It's just a matter of statistics, mixed with inexperience, stupidity and bad luck.

Driving is different as accidents often involve two cars/people. You can be doing everything right and still have a car accident because someone in another car did something wrong.

I agree that rappelling accidents are caused by inexperience and stupidity (prefer "human error") but I think that "bad luck" is just another word for not recognizing or thinking clearly about the potential dangers.

[qedcook]

You can be doing everything right and still have a car accident...

You don't think that's true with canyoneering/rappelling? You could be doing everything right and a rock breaks off above you, cuts your rope, and you fall you your death. Accidents happen, always have, always will, no matter how prepared and skilled and experienced you are. It's human hubris to think otherwise.

[spinesnaper]

The last rap in Behunin forever converted my partner and myself to believers in static rope, blocking, and being prepared for a fireman's belay. Gravity is no joke.

Ken

[Bootboy]

You don't think that's true with canyoneering/rappelling? You could be doing everything right and a rock breaks off above you, cuts your rope, and you fall you your death. Accidents happen, always have, always will, no matter how prepared and skilled and experienced you are. It's human hubris to think otherwise.

The odds of that kind of an accident are astronomical in well traveled canyons. More often than not, canyoneering accidents are human error.

[hank moon]

Obviously accidents cannot be eliminated b/c the potential for human error is ever present. It's not even a moot point. That said, we *can* strive to minimize the potential for accidents by developing our skills, knowledge, mental and physical conditioning etc. in the course of gaining experience which (if we survive) can give rise to the holy grail of safety, <angelic chorus and/or farting heard>, sound judgment.

Oh yeah, and wear a helmet, don't wear sandals, and secure your water bottles and all other stuff. An unsecured water bottle (especially) can fall out of pack and become a deadly missile. I've been on a few trips where that happened, thankfully no-one was hit.

Safety tip #106

[Absolute Gravity]

Oh yeah, and wear a helmet

Looks like this was one of the differences between this accident and the Subway one. The girl in the Subway was not wearing a helmet.

[Slot Machine]

Looks like this was one of the differences between this accident and the Subway one. The girl in the Subway was not wearing a helmet.

Unfortunately the spot where she fell isn't helmet territory. It is the end of the approach hike. The few people that bring helmets to The Subway won't be wearing them at that point.

Not saying a helmet would have saved her too. A fall from that height is almost always leathal.

[Absolute Gravity]

Not saying a helmet would have saved her too. A fall from that height is almost always leathal.

Yet was mentioned as a contributing factor to this dude's survival. I'm surprised those things could offer any real protection on a big fall, but there are multiple cases of it happening. Amazing. Glad we have 'em.

[Bootboy]

Yet was mentioned as a contributing factor to this dude's survival. I'm surprised those things could offer any real protection on a big fall, but there are multiple cases of it happening. Amazing. Glad we have 'em.

If nothing else, it increases your odds when it hits the fan, if ya know what I mean.

[qedcook]

I might be remembering wrong, but didn't Tom fall once? My only point is that we shouldn't think ourselves so great and skilled and knowledgeable that we are immune from human error, freak accidents, bad luck, etc. When I read the details of an accident, I try not to instantly think: "Oh, they should have done this or that. They didn't know what they were doing." We should learn from the mistakes but we should NOT assume the group did something wrong or were not prepared or experienced enough. Haven't all of us bogley 'experts' had our own close calls?

[hank moon]

Unfortunately the spot where she fell isn't helmet territory.

Helmet territory is subjective, right? I put mine on before heading down the Mystery death gully, for example. Seen a bunch of falls in there and the rock is sharp and pointy. Helmet's not much use in the pack...if you can fall a good distance onto stuff, or if the stuff can fall onto you, might as well put it on.

[Slot Machine]

Helmet territory is subjective, right? I put mine on before heading down the Mystery death gully, for example. Seen a bunch of falls in there and the rock is sharp and pointy. Helmet's not much use in the pack...if you can fall a good distance onto stuff, or if the stuff can fall onto you, might as well put it on.

Subjective, certainly.

Comparing apples to apples: East Rim Trail to The Subway approach. Mystery Death Gully to Subway Tree Root Downclimb.

I'll never put on a helmet for The Subway approach unless I develop a seizure disorder. However, if one is going to wander off The Subway approach directly towards a cliff edge, then yes, a helmet should be donned.

[Bo_Beck]

Subjective, certainly.

Comparing apples to apples: East Rim Trail to The Subway approach. Mystery Death Gully to Subway Tree Root Downclimb.

Dude! You're going about it all wrong! Much shorter to take Wildcat Canyon TH to Subway route than to hike East Rim Trail to Subway! And Mystery Death Gully to Subway Tree Root Downclimb?! Thats one I haven't done either?!

[Slot Machine]

Dude! You're going about it all wrong! Much shorter to take Wildcat Canyon TH to Subway route than to hike East Rim Trail to Subway! And Mystery Death Gully to Subway Tree Root Downclimb?! Thats one I haven't done either?!

Oddly, Temple of Sinawava to Ocsar's seems longer than any of em'.

[Bootboy]

Oddly, Temple of Sinawava to Ocsar's seems longer than any of em'.

Amen

[ratagonia]

You don't think that's true with canyoneering/rappelling? You could be doing everything right and a rock breaks off above you, cuts your rope, and you fall you your death. Accidents happen, always have, always will, no matter how prepared and skilled and experienced you are. It's human hubris to think otherwise.

There are risks that can be managed, and those that cannot. Most of the accidents we see are human error, and avoidable.

In my life, I have a personal policy of ZERO accidents that have severe injury or death as a consequence. I have only broken this policy once.

This is a stupid sport, and it would extra double-down stupid to die doing it.

Zero Accidents is an ideal that we can collectively work toward. For instance by giving attentive fireman belays as a matter of course, and wearing helmets even for such mundane canyons as the Subway, and by making it uncool to NOT wear a helmet.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I might be remembering wrong, but didn't Tom fall once? My only point is that we shouldn't think ourselves so great and skilled and knowledgeable that we are immune from human error, freak accidents, bad luck, etc. When I read the details of an accident, I try not to instantly think: "Oh, they should have done this or that. They didn't know what they were doing." We should learn from the mistakes but we should NOT assume the group did something wrong or were not prepared or experienced enough. Haven't all of us bogley 'experts' had our own close calls?

I did, and I nearly killed myself. Only broke my wrist and tweeked my torso.

While my stupidity had me set up a bo-o-o-o-o-gus anchor, my skill at low force rappelling allowed me to reach 8 feet off the deck before the anchor failed. The rap was about 80 feet.

Tom

[qedcook]

While my stupidity had me set up a bo-o-o-o-o-gus anchor, my skill at low force rappelling allowed me to reach 8 feet off the deck before the anchor failed. The rap was about 80 feet.

Out of curiosity, what was the canyon? Which rappel? Anchor? Details? No worries if you don't want to share, but it's always exceptionally helpful to learn from a pro's mistakes. No sarcasm in any of these statements, I promise.

[ratagonia]

Out of curiosity, what was the canyon? Which rappel? Anchor? Details? No worries if you don't want to share, but it's always exceptionally helpful to learn from a pro's mistakes. No sarcasm in any of these statements, I promise.

The same old same old:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/rave/...011-toms-view/

Tom