Some newbie questions and just wanted to say hello!

[Aj84737]

If I remember right Tom mentioned in his book that the blue atlas gloves are a good choice.Idk if he still feels that way, but that is all I use now. Sure they only last a couple of canyons, but I can get them for 2 bucks a pair at my work. They are not that thick but give you a pretty good grip on the rope. Also pretty good for stemming and downclimbing.

[hank moon]

The Atlas (Latex-dipped) gloves last a lot longer if not used for rappelling.

[ratagonia]

If I remember right Tom mentioned in his book that the blue atlas gloves are a good choice.Idk if he still feels that way, but that is all I use now. Sure they only last a couple of canyons, but I can get them for 2 bucks a pair at my work. They are not that thick but give you a pretty good grip on the rope. Also pretty good for stemming and downclimbing.

Nope.

I think the blue-palmed ones are WAY too sticky, and are very difficult to rappel with.

I use the Thermofits which have a grey palm and are less sticky, and work pretty well. I sell em for 6$ a pair, but you might be able to get them cheaper elsewhere. But, I stand by that taking beginners, bare hands are your best bet.

Tom

[deagol]

somewhat off-topic, but I went spearfishing for invasive Lionfish in the Caribbean in April. The fish have long spines filled with dangerous neurotoxin. The "lionfish-proof gloves" are none other than the blue latex Atlas gloves. I never did have to put them to the test, though ....

[Ecegatorturo]

I don't check back in two days and I have a ton of replies! You guys are awesome! :) I'll reply back to each of you now. Thanks for all of your help everyone.

[Ecegatorturo]

Whoa! Way way way too much to respond to all at once!

Here's a tutorial on stuffing the rope bag. Yes, you stuff it after every rappel. The bag is most useful in DEPLOYING the rope, and cannot be used unless you stuff it back in.

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While TommyBoy's suggestions are good, he assumed a certain amount of training that you do not have.

In general, you put the end through the rapide and lower out enough rope to reach the bottom. Most times you can see, but not always. Sometimes you can hear or see the rope hit the water below.

Perhaps it is obvious, but let me restate it anyway: it is important that the rope be long enough. A clumsy way to do this is to mark the center of your rope with a Sharpie or piece of tape, and pull out till you get to that. Most of the raps in Pine Creek are less than 60 feet (all but the last one), so maybe a mark at 60 feet would be best. Go to the mark - the rope reaches. Except for the last one.

I think you can see why many canyoneers rap single line, a lot.

Your best choice for Pine Creek would be 2 x 120 foot ropes, but...

When you going?

Tom

Thanks for the link. My friend showed me how to load the rope bag and it pretty much matched what that link showed so I'm glad that the information at least is the same. :)

I never thought that most of the rappels would be visible to the bottom so that makes things easier. If I can't see the bottom, then it would just make sense to just deploy the entire rope anyway to ensure that it reaches. Better safe than sorry right?

We definitely will have a long enough rope to double-rope all of our planned descents. The rope is marked in the center already. I'm carrying a 60m so that should be just enough to do the last rap in Pine Creek. I will personally measure it though because I read a post here earlier of some guy that fell off the end of his rope because his 60m rope happened to be only 190 feet (not sure how that can happen).

I like the idea of single rope but I feel uncomfortable as a newbie since I have little experience setting up blocks plus you also lose the extra rope of friction. Hopefully some day I will get to that point! Right now, I'm strictly going for simplicity and you can't get any simpler than double rope. :)

[Ecegatorturo]

As far as your larger friend goes, he'll be fine on high friction double-stranded on that rappel. I've weighed at least 250 for most of my time canyoneering and high friction double strand has always been plenty of friction on any rappel.

As far as wetsuits go, I generally just wear my regular underwear under it and have extra (in the dry bag) to change into when I'm done. Swimsuits would probably work fine. I think there's a descent percentage of people who go commando under wetsuits? I'm not sure. Also, in canyoneering, I always wear clothes over the top of my wetsuit to keep it from getting totally shredded on the sandstone. I figure the clothes I'm wearing will be a lot cheaper to replace than a wetsuit.

Ok sounds good. I think I'm a little more at ease about that last drop in Pine Creek then. I may throw on a second caribiner just for piece of mind but I'll test him out when we practice at my house before our trip.

Thanks for the wetsuit info! I was completely clueless about it so this helps. By the way, Dick's Sporting Goods is having an online sale of their wetsuits. They are all 50% off so go check it out! I just ordered a full wetsuit yesterday. :)

[Ecegatorturo]

great thread! You picked out some nice canyons also. I personally would swap subway for orderville, but that's just my personal preference. Not sure if you have permits yet, but spry, birch hollow, and echo are great if any of those others fall through. Definitely hit Pine Creek, that time of year it is usually full and a total blast. The last rap in Pine creek is dicey though. My Marine buddy even said it's scarier than rapping out of a helicopter when we did it last :). So if you're going to have problems, that's the one to look out for. Actually I have the footage, I'll toss it up. This is from Dec 1st last year.....

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And Keyhole is a great 1 1/2 hour beginner canyon and nice to start everyone out on. Pay attention to them on an easy one like Keyhole, and you can probably notice any problems you'll have on the harder canyons and work them out ahead of time. I can tell you really did your homework, nice job. I always wear gloves, even cheap home depot ones are awesome IMO. Sandstone is highly abrasive and even doing downclimbs my hands get shredded.

I also just wear my clothes on top of my wetsuit. Would rather see my clothes destroyed than a pricey wetsuit.

Also it seems like the most common injury canyoneering wise is a twisted ankle or a badly stubbed toe. Make sure everyone has decent footwear, no sandals, and watch the slippery rocks. You guys will do fine!

I already got the permits for everything so we are somewhat locked in. I will keep those others in mind for a later trip though so thanks for the info! After watching your video, that last rap is crazy but awesome! It's a little awkward too from the looks of it. One question though... I keep reading that the bolts for the last rap are on a ledge of some sort. Is this ledge obvious when you approach it? I imagine you would want to tie off somewhere for safety but where can you tie off before walking on this ledge? How did you guys do it? I saw you had some sort of webbing linked together from the bolt but you still have to get to the bolt itself. How did you get there to hook up your safety?

Yeah, what he said. The first question is scary - Yes, you are missing something important.

Gloves always make your fingers less dexterous. Gloves that are thick get in the way of gripping the rope. Gloves that are slick mean gripping the rope makes no difference - the rope just slides through. Kaboom.

If you wore boxing gloves in the canyon, your experience would be degraded, right? Bare hands are at one end of the spectrum, and boxing gloves at the other. If you make a good choice of glove, it is close to being like bare hands.

The issue usually comes up in discussing neoprene gloves for cold wet canyons when they are especially cold and wet. But neoprene gloves (with exceptions) grip the rope poorly and are not suitable for rappelling. In Heaps late season, I wear neoprene gloves for the swims, and pull them off to rappel bare-handed.

If you tell people to bring gloves, they will bring a wide variety of gloves. Ski gloves would not work too well.

Jus' Sayin'...

That's a valid point. The gloves that I have are supposed to be for canyoneering/climbing. They are mesh-like on top and leather on the bottom with an extra patch of leather across the palm where the rope would go. I've used them a few times when practicing and I haven't had many issues getting things hooked up but I understand what you mean about losing some dexterity. I have a couple of sets of gloves that my canyoneering friend lent me that I could give to my friends so that would at least reduce the chances of someone bringing boxing gloves (or ski gloves for that matter). ;)

I may have missed it, but I would also make sure you throw some headlamps in your drybag. You don't want to need them, but if you do get caught out after dark and do need them, it would suck to not have them. Plus 1 on other's advice about no sandals, Tevas, etc. You can wear underarmour type shorts under a wetsuit as they won't bulk up and will dry quickly. You can throw abrasion protection shorts over them both with & without the wetsuit. I use knee pads and sometimes elbow pads to protect both skin and neoprene. a dry pair of socks for the hike out might also be a good idea (although dry socks would probably get soaked by wet shoes?). I did Pine Creek in June in a 3/2 wetsuit and was pretty cold. I didn't have problems with the last rap, but wanted to get the wet wetsuit off as soon as possible. I wear long pants in scrappy dry canyons, but don't think I would like long pants in a wet canyon, as went pants seem like they would inhibit freedom of movement too much. If I wanna protect my wetsuit in a scrappy wet canyon, I think knee/elbow pads and shorts would probably be OK.

Very good point! We will definitely have headlamps with us. We plan to rent 5.10 Canyoneers/neoprene socks from ZAC. I can't even imagine people wearing sandals in a canyon!! People do this?! I also have some compression shorts that I wear underneath my chamois shorts for mountain biking so thanks for that idea.

[ratagonia]

We definitely will have a long enough rope to double-rope all of our planned descents. The rope is marked in the center already. I'm carrying a 60m so that should be just enough to do the last rap in Pine Creek. I will personally measure it though because I read a post here earlier of some guy that fell off the end of his rope because his 60m rope happened to be only 190 feet (not sure how that can happen).

USED to be very close to 100 feet, now it is more like 90. The floor moved up.

I like the idea of single rope but I feel uncomfortable as a newbie since I have little experience setting up blocks plus you also lose the extra rope of friction. Hopefully some day I will get to that point! Right now, I'm strictly going for simplicity and you can't get any simpler than double rope. :)

Smart move...

Tom

[deagol]

...........
.... The gloves that I have are supposed to be for canyoneering/climbing. They are mesh-like on top and leather on the bottom with an extra patch of leather across the palm where the rope would go.......

..... I can't even imagine people wearing sandals in a canyon!! People do this?!...

The gloves you mention sound a lot like rappelling gloves (like the Petzel ones I have). The leather palms are good for handling rope when it is moving through your hands during a long rappel, but they can get in the way of dexterity when rigging things. My rap gloves are used only to rap and I don't wear gloves while rigging stuff. I also would not wear them when traveling through the canyons, as the sandstone would abrade the leather too much. I carry the "gardening type cheap gloves" mentioned here for hand protection against the sandstone and swap them out for the leather gloves for rappelling. The leather rap gloves also go in a small drybag for times when I have to go in the water, as the water isn't good for the leather. As far as people wearing Tevas and/or sandals: I've seen it and heard about it, especially in Zion. I've also heard about a few guys who used those "five fingers" Vibram shoes in canyons and swore they would never do that again.

[ratagonia]

I already got the permits for everything so we are somewhat locked in. I will keep those others in mind for a later trip though so thanks for the info! After watching your video, that last rap is crazy but awesome! It's a little awkward too from the looks of it.


One question though... I keep reading that the bolts for the last rap are on a ledge of some sort. Is this ledge obvious when you approach it? I imagine you would want to tie off somewhere for safety but where can you tie off before walking on this ledge? How did you guys do it? I saw you had some sort of webbing linked together from the bolt but you still have to get to the bolt itself. How did you get there to hook up your safety?

You can change your permit without paying more money, if the opportunity is available. Just ask. Gotta be the same day, though, but you can change the canyon and the number.

2nd part - uh, yeah, uh, this is something you should go over with your climbing friend. What do you do if an anchor needs to be re-rigged? Or you need to set up a safety line (like YES YOU DO at the last rappel, and sometimes at the Cathedral especially with beginners, and at the first rappel too).

Tom

[Ecegatorturo]

The gloves you mention sound a lot like rappelling gloves (like the Petzel ones I have). The leather palms are good for handling rope when it is moving through your hands during a long rappel, but they can get in the way of dexterity when rigging things. My rap gloves are used only to rap and I don't wear gloves while rigging stuff. I also would not wear them when traveling through the canyons, as the sandstone would abrade the leather too much. I carry the "gardening type cheap gloves" mentioned here for hand protection against the sandstone and swap them out for the leather gloves for rappelling. The leather rap gloves also go in a small drybag for times when I have to go in the water, as the water isn't good for the leather. As far as people wearing Tevas and/or sandals: I've seen it and heard about it, especially in Zion. I've also heard about a few guys who used those "five fingers" Vibram shoes in canyons and swore they would never do that again.

I think that's exactly what they are. :) My friend's gloves are all some brand I can't remember the name of at the moment but hey are three letters. They are constructed very similarly with the extra patch of leather in the rope path. I'll make it a point to only wear them to rap and not to set up as not to lose dexterity. I didn't think about the sandstone really ruining the gloves too much when travelling through the canyon. Good advice!

You can change your permit without paying more money, if the opportunity is available. Just ask. Gotta be the same day, though, but you can change the canyon and the number.

2nd part - uh, yeah, uh, this is something you should go over with your climbing friend. What do you do if an anchor needs to be re-rigged? Or you need to set up a safety line (like YES YOU DO at the last rappel, and sometimes at the Cathedral especially with beginners, and at the first rappel too).

Tom

I am pretty confident at re-rigging some webbing at a bolt anchor if necessary. I was just curious about setting up a safety line at the last Pine Creek rappel. Where do you tie your safety line into? Is there another bolt or canyon feature you can tie into before going out on that ledge to set up your rope? I can't seem to find any information on that when I've searched for it. All the beta just says that the rappel bolts are on a ledge and to set up a safety line but nobody says WHERE to tie that safety line into. I'm guessing the situation will be obvious when I see it for myself in person.

How do the bolts in the Cathedral look? I saw somewhere that there was some chain involved? Is the bolt station exposed enough to warrant a safety line when setting up? Again, I'm assuming this will all be obvious when I get there and see it but I just like to know what I'm getting into ahead of time.

[Deathcricket]

. I keep reading that the bolts for the last rap are on a ledge of some sort. Is this ledge obvious when you approach it? I imagine you would want to tie off somewhere for safety but where can you tie off before walking on this ledge? How did you guys do it? I saw you had some sort of webbing linked together from the bolt but you still have to get to the bolt itself. How did you get there to hook up your safety?

There is a little mini arch I guess you could wrap some webbing around to get you to the edge for safety. but it's better to just scurry to the edge and latch in I think. The last rap is a little hard to find. stay on the left and pass the huge hole, walk across some logs, climb the rockface to the left, and come down the other side of the grotto. You'll figure it out though, not "that" hard to locate.

Have a great trip! You're gonna have a blast!

[TommyBoy]

The last rap isn't bad but it can feel scary for newb. My first time there I felt like I was leaning way out over the drop and was more than a little freaked then I came back after a year and my first thought was who moved the bolts closer!

[ratagonia]

There is a little mini arch I guess you could wrap some webbing around to get you to the edge for safety. but it's better to just scurry to the edge and latch in I think. The last rap is a little hard to find. stay on the left and pass the huge hole, walk across some logs, climb the rockface to the left, and come down the other side of the grotto. You'll figure it out though, not to hard to locate.

Have a great trip! You're gonna have a blast!

I think it is easier to safety off to the little arch and manage from there rather than have two people and two ropes hooked all into the same anchor.

"I am pretty confident..."

Yeah? We had a guy in Moab this spring who was pretty confident. Good thing was, when his knot fell apart it was HIM on the rope rather than someone else who died. I hope you are just being conversationally polite here, and you really honestly 100% know how to tie knots and rig webbing - because less than 100% doesn't really count.

Tom

[Deathcricket]

The last rap isn't bad but it can feel scary for newb. My first time there I felt like I was leaning way out over the drop and was more than a little freaked then I came back after a year and my first thought was who moved the bolts closer!

too funny. IMO the 2 scariest raps in Zion are the last rap in pine creek and the last rap in Behuinin. Err wait no, lodge canyon.. ok top 5 scariest raps for sure, haha.

It's like such and akward start swinging out on to that ledge. Still freaks me out every time I go.

[Ecegatorturo]

I think it is easier to safety off to the little arch and manage from there rather than have two people and two ropes hooked all into the same anchor.

So this arch you speak of is in an easy to tie off location? Once you tie off, then I would just go up the ledge everyone speaks of and tie off the rope to the bolt station?

"I am pretty confident..."

Yeah? We had a guy in Moab this spring who was pretty confident. Good thing was, when his knot fell apart it was HIM on the rope rather than someone else who died. I hope you are just being conversationally polite here, and you really honestly 100% know how to tie knots and rig webbing - because less than 100% doesn't really count.

Tom

Wow. That's really sad. What was the problem with how he tied the webbing? Did they ever determine that?

From what I've been told by my friend and from what I've been reading and what I've seen online, this is my understanding:
There are usually two bolts in the rock face. After verifying that they are secure and not crumbling out of the rock, I would attach a webbing loop on each of them. The webbing loops would be created by typing a properly dressed water knot (which I have tied before from my previous ski patrol training) with at least 3-4" of tail on both sides. These two webbing loops (now looped through the bolt hangers) are then tied together with a single rapide and that is where I would feed the rope through.

Let me know if I'm incorrect in any way. This is exactly why I'm posting here so I definitely welcome any advice or criticism. :)

The other related question to this is how do you determine if the existing webbing is in good enough condition? I'd imagine ANY frays on the webbing would definitely be a warning sign to change it out but what about faded webbing. Sunlight fades and eventually wears the webbing down but what is an accessible level of fading? In other words, what warning signs besides obvious fraying are you using to determine if webbing needs to be replaced?

[ratagonia]

Let me know if I'm incorrect in any way. This is exactly why I'm posting here so I definitely welcome any advice or criticism. :)

The other related question to this is how do you determine if the existing webbing is in good enough condition? I'd imagine ANY frays on the webbing would definitely be a warning sign to change it out but what about faded webbing. Sunlight fades and eventually wears the webbing down but what is an accessible level of fading? In other words, what warning signs besides obvious fraying are you using to determine if webbing needs to be replaced?

It's great that you bring a lot of questions to the forum, to the world, to your upcoming adventure.

In ten minutes, person to person, it would be really clear what your skill level is, whether you have the right stuff to lead your friends on this trip.

But via the interwebs, very hard to say, either way.

Not sure if you have read all this, and practiced, and have it down:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...ebbing-anchor/

Sooooooooooooo....

Just gotta say, MY evaluation of various incidents is: Don't be a beginner led by a beginner!

We don't know what happened with the kid in Moab. The webbing he (apparently) tied around a tree parted as he rappelled last - he fell quite a ways and was dead.

Again - what day you going? You want some help? If I'm in town, I think I would be up for helping out, if you want.

Tom

[hank moon]

Just gotta say, MY evaluation of various incidents is: Don't be a beginner led by a beginner!

X2

[Ecegatorturo]

It's great that you bring a lot of questions to the forum, to the world, to your upcoming adventure.

In ten minutes, person to person, it would be really clear what your skill level is, whether you have the right stuff to lead your friends on this trip.

But via the interwebs, very hard to say, either way.

Not sure if you have read all this, and practiced, and have it down:

http://www.canyoneeringusa.com/techt...ebbing-anchor/

Sooooooooooooo....

Just gotta say, MY evaluation of various incidents is: Don't be a beginner led by a beginner!

We don't know what happened with the kid in Moab. The webbing he (apparently) tied around a tree parted as he rappelled last - he fell quite a ways and was dead.

Again - what day you going? You want some help? If I'm in town, I think I would be up for helping out, if you want.

Tom

I completely understand what you mean. :) I saw that page a few weeks ago and it pretty much falls in line with what I've practiced before when I used to do ski patrol (as far as tying water knots with webbing).

I guess my worry is that even though I know the mechanics of setting up the anchor and rappelling (and have practiced it quite a bit), it's still an entirely new experience travelling through a canyon. Since I haven't had the opportunity of trying this yet, naturally there is a degree of anxiety but everyone has this their first time through I'm sure.

I've appreciated everyone's input in here! You guys have been nothing but extremely helpful and informative and it's definitely given me some confidence in validating that what I have done is correct so far but also reaffirming my concerns about being a beginner.

We are hitting up Keyhole and Pine Creek on 9/19 and Subway on 9/20. I may be interested in some help if you're around and willing. Where are you based out of? Springdale? We plan to do some backpacking on the West Rim trail on the two days prior (9/17-9/18) and then we will be camping at Watchman the night of the 18th. Shoot me a PM if you want and we can talk some more. Thanks again for all of your help!