Ethics...And Dogs on hikes...

[Bo_Beck]

Pretty sure this topic gets a rise from most everyone, but I'm curious to see how people weigh in, or should I say, how people might weigh in? This spurns from another recent thread, and has been discussed (or rather over-discussed and beat to death) in many threads. What's your take?

I hiked the Subway 2 1/2 weeks ago. We ran into 3 hikers with their dog hiking up the Left Fork. The dog wasn't restrained and immediately confronted me with threatening snarls and wanted me to show fear so that he could take a hunk out of me while the woman owner was feebly shouting for "Duke" to stop it and come back. I stood my ground and showed no fear and stared "Duke" down as he seemed a bit taken by surprise! When the owner finally grabbed her dog by the collar and pullled it back. I explained that dogs are not allowed in The Subway and they were at risk of recieving a fine if the Rangers were to confront them. She said that she wasn't worried and let Duke go as they continued on their merry way.

OK....I know a lot of folks on this forum are contra the permit system, and may or may not really care, but I suggest this.......What if you had been me, and your kids were along for the hike...or lets say instead, you were me and you'd encountered this same scenario. How would you be thinking right now about the permit system? Is it there for a reason? Or should it just be a free for all? Whats the difference between just poaching, and poaching with your dog? How do I distinguish or create the line between whats acceptable or not?

Just curious!

[oldno7]

...

[Bo_Beck]

...

The most interesting man in the world!

[oldno7]

Sorry Bo, couldn't help myself.

To answer your question, I hate aggressive dogs, especially when the owner thinks they are cute, while tearing your pants off your leg.

I would really hate that same dog, confronting me in the subway.

I say stab it with your canyoneering knife and resume the hike like nothing happened....

Let her explain how some crazy canyoneer stabbed her illegal dog on her illegal hike.

And then there would be the issue of carcass removal--$$$$$$

[Brian in SLC]

I How would you be thinking right now about the permit system? Is it there for a reason? Or should it just be a free for all? Whats the difference between just poaching, and poaching with your dog? How do I distinguish or create the line between whats acceptable or not?

Blatent disregard for not only the rules, but, other folks' well being. Ugh. Not acceptable. Tough situation, though. I don't have the aplomb to deal with some of those folks in the wild. I'd probably think about turning her in. Citizen's arrest? Tough call.

I saw a person hiking with their dog in Little Cottonwood this week. Casually asked if she had a permit, and, they kind of angrily reponded, "yes, I do." I just said "well, good". And left it at that. The people in her party did start a discussion with her about it, which, would have been interesting to hear but they (and we) hiked out of earshot.

Last weekend, talking to the ranger at Castle Rocks. He's in full uniform, as well as one of his co-rangers, with, two park vehicles in the very small parking lot. A couple gals pulled up and out piled two ginormous marmadukes. Really big great danes. They pack up to head out and the ranger asks, "uhhh, you ARE going to put those dogs on a leash, right?"

People and their dogs. Too funny. Kinda.

[oldno7]

This guy has some amazing stuff that is somehow relevant to this thread, wonder if he canyoneers?---strange

[qedcook]

I hate dogs of all kinds so my opinion is slanted, but usually when an unleashed dog gets too aggressive with me I slap it in the face hard. Or if it's really aggressive, I kick it gently. If the owner complains, I tell them to control their pet.

Unfortunately, I can't take the same approach with my siblings dogs when they come to visit.

[jman]

Interesting Bo.

I find the ones most obsessed about taking there dogs with em are the female kind. My sister is kinda the same way. If she could, she would bring her Visla through Heaps, down waterfalls, rock-climbing, skydiving, scuba-diving, repairing the roof, wake-surfing, etc. Don't get me wrong, I love my old dog - but don't want to haul it around on every trip, let alone, technical ones.

And here's my opinion - it seems most people have a disregard to ethics. The ones who care are the rare ones these days. It's a selfish world. If people could get away with it, they would. Now, that's the cynic in me talking and I tend to see the world through a half-empty glass POV. And that's the problem - people not caring about their actions ever (doesn't mainstream culture along with music say "to not care", do what what you want - screw everybody else mantra?).

You at least brought up the question to her - at least she was aware and that was probably good enough. And I'm glad you did. It's similar to myself hiking in the nearby Cottonwoods and I see people hiking with dogs. I tell them that they shouldn't have brought their dog - followed by their instant reply of F*** YOU!. And again, for the stereotype, it's mostly young women. It's rarely a "how come?" or a "oh, i didn't know", etc. It's 99% of the time, a F*** YOU! type of response. Hence, the "i dont' care" mentality. But hey, I'll keep on saying that whenever I see em.

[xxnitsuaxx]

I was running in Millcreek when a super-aggressive boxer pounced at me with his teeth bared. I spun to avoid him and he pounced again. The second time, I uppercutted him and knocked him off the trail. He lay there for a second before getting up woozily and slinking away. The owner came up apologetically and said that she was sorry and that the dog didn't take kindly to strangers. I reamed her for knowingly taking an aggressive dog off-leash on a public trail and told her that she was a lawsuit waiting to happen. I considered turning her into the police (hers was the only other car at the trailhead that day and I got the license plate number) but decided against it.

Moral of the story? If a dog attacks you, defend yourself however you see fit. I like dogs and all but I think there are times and places for them and crowded national parks definitely isn't it.

[xxnitsuaxx]

And coming from what jman said - I'd like to hear from a dog lover who thinks it's ok to take their dog everywhere. What's your reasoning for taking your dog EVERYWHERE? Do you not like to be apart from it? Is it more fun with a dog along? Do you recognize that some people who frequent the same places you do don't like dogs? Does that factor into your decision or does your desire to be with your dog trump my desire to not step in its poop or have it run across my rope?

[JONBOYLEMON]

I will gladly kick or hit or stab or shoot an aggressive dog. I was at the local park last year and a little dog came up all teeth and anger. I was flying my rc plane at the time and was looking up but could see the fury anger at my feet. Well a little 10 pound dog can fly 10' without much of a kick.

The owner got all pissy with me and said "Oh, hes all bark, he would never hurt anybody, you didnt have to kick him" I landed and smiled, and said "Good to know" I said it in a tone that expressed how little I cared what he would or would not do.

Moral of the story, I bet I am like most people, we dont want to wait to find out what the dog will or wont do. If you have a dog, its your responsibility.

[D.O.N.E.]

I don't take my dogs EVERYWHERE but they do go lots of places with me, although never anywhere they are prohibited and not through anything technical. if they cant make it on their own they aren't going. However, as much as I love them I'm also strict with them. I do a lot of work prior to taking them somewhere we are likely to run into folks. I don't tolerate aggression, charging, etc. I practice their recall, I don't care what the hell is going on when I call them they are to heel. As much as my dogs are friendly, I wait for someone to ask to interact with them before they are allowed to approach that person. The few places they go off-leash I clip them back on leash or have them sit-stay with my hand on their collar if I see someone approaching us. And yes I pack out EVERYTHING, I have a roll of poop bags clipped on their leash. And none of that extendable leash bs. Those need to be outlawed. The only people using them seem to be the ones with out of control dogs. Mine walk on a loose leash at my hip.

unfortunately not all dog owners are responsible, which is part of the reason I'm so strict with mine. I want my dogs near me when a strange dog runs up with its fur ruffled growling. I can't do much but I'll do what I can to keep that dog away from mine and prevent a fight. It irritates me to no end when someone lets their dog run up to mine without my permission first. You don't know my dogs, what if I was so strict because they'll attempt to tear into your dog? They wouldn't but still! What kind of dog owner is negligent enough to let their dog do that? And don't get me started on the types whose dog walks them on a leash not the other way around!

To be a responsible dog owner is to keep your dog from harm. YOU tell it where it can and can not go. You do not let it interact willy nilly with every person or animal it sees, only with those you judge and confirm are open to and positive about an interaction. To be a responsible person you don't leave trash behind, even if its your dog's doo doo!

[Felicia]

I take pictures of the people and their animals.

[Iceaxe]

I like dogs, children and old people......

[oldno7]

I like dogs, children and old people......

And Watermelon Wine???

[cchoc]

Carry one of those pocket pepper spray canisters and give fido a snoot full.

[Mojave Silence]

Carry whatever self defense tool you find necessary to quickly and overwhelmingly deal with any threat you may encounter in remote areas. I'm done trying to rationalize with people who allow aggressive dogs to run free in public areas. If I deem the dog to be threatening toward me I'll deal with it then and there.

[Byron]

Unlike some of you others here, I've never been aggressively approached by a dog, ever. Sure, I've had a few come up a bit cautiously, not looking to freindly...but never in attack mode. I've dated women who have dogs that would lick your face off...even out on the trail.

Personally, I don't care. Like Jman said, lots of folks will tell you to either shove it or play like they're stupid...so what's the point in even saying anything? Don't think for a minute that these folks are going to have a epiphany and suddenly consider anyone but themselves.

I suppose I live by the "they do what they want to do, 'cause they're going to do it anyway" school of thought.

These people with their unleashed, aggro dogs are just plain rude and selfish. There are two types of people in the world...givers and takers. I realized a long time ago that the takers are the ones you really want nothing to do with. So I really don't give a crap what they do...I figure if they're going through life with little to no real consideration for others, they're already ate up in a way, know what I mean?

Enjoy life, perhaps even break the rules every now and then... do what makes you happy but don't do it if it'll cause inconvenience to others. I think that's a good philosophy. However, wishing that these people would somehow get with the program is just that...wishing.

Pepper spray...I like that. Just don't blast the lickers, eh?

[pikan]

I don't take my dogs EVERYWHERE but they do go lots of places with me, although never anywhere they are prohibited and not through anything technical. if they cant make it on their own they aren't going. However, as much as I love them I'm also strict with them. I do a lot of work prior to taking them somewhere we are likely to run into folks. I don't tolerate aggression, charging, etc. I practice their recall, I don't care what the hell is going on when I call them they are to heel. As much as my dogs are friendly, I wait for someone to ask to interact with them before they are allowed to approach that person. The few places they go off-leash I clip them back on leash or have them sit-stay with my hand on their collar if I see someone approaching us. And yes I pack out EVERYTHING, I have a roll of poop bags clipped on their leash. And none of that extendable leash bs. Those need to be outlawed. The only people using them seem to be the ones with out of control dogs. Mine walk on a loose leash at my hip.

unfortunately not all dog owners are responsible, which is part of the reason I'm so strict with mine. I want my dogs near me when a strange dog runs up with its fur ruffled growling. I can't do much but I'll do what I can to keep that dog away from mine and prevent a fight. It irritates me to no end when someone lets their dog run up to mine without my permission first. You don't know my dogs, what if I was so strict because they'll attempt to tear into your dog? They wouldn't but still! What kind of dog owner is negligent enough to let their dog do that? And don't get me started on the types whose dog walks them on a leash not the other way around!

To be a responsible dog owner is to keep your dog from harm. YOU tell it where it can and can not go. You do not let it interact willy nilly with every person or animal it sees, only with those you judge and confirm are open to and positive about an interaction. To be a responsible person you don't leave trash behind, even if its your dog's doo doo!

I try to be strict with my dog as well, but my dog's high-energy, social nature (Vizsla) makes it hard to keep him away from people ALL the time. I've done a pretty good job on all but a few occasions. If I can help it, I will wait for someone to ask to approach him before i let him interact with other people and I will always make sure he's okay with it before allowing it. If it's a high traffic area, I'll keep him on the leash or leave him at home. In fact, if I know that the chances of running into ANY people are good, I'll at least bring my leash with so he can be kept under control. But the fact is, all these precautions are not 100% effective with my dog so please try to be nice to him :) he's a good doggy :)

He does get a bit out of sorts with SOME people on rare occasions (haven't figured out why yet, my next theory to observe is hair-do) but most of the time he is friendly (he has never bitten anyone).

So what I'm trying to say is this: don't escalate a situation unnecessarily. If someone smacks or kicks my dog...okay as long as he deserved it. But if you can help it, let me do it. Pepper spray....weeellll... he would REALLY need to deserve it. Stabbing?...come on people!!!!! Pets are part of people's families!!!! (aside from the financial investment that can be involved...buying, training, etc... $$$$$) Lets try to keep the peace a bit. I will be the first to defend ANYONE who takes such a drastic action to defend themselves from a valid life-threatening dog (or person for that matter) after all other options are exhausted, but if someone stabs my dog, they better have a REALLY, REALLY good reason, otherwise.......

As far as taking my dog where he shouldn't be... I welcome friendly reminders! I don't knowingly take my dog places that he isn't allowed so please let me know if I do so I know in the future. Just because some don't care doesn't mean we all don't. Don't give up on people in general so easily!

[pikan]

...and I agree that technical canyons are NOT for dogs. If he can't get there on his own, he shouldn't be there.