Pine Creek For Kids?

[moab mark]

I would not be taking kids that small thru pine creek, especially if you haven't been.
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[moab mark]

If I took small kids I would meat anchor from up where everyone stages and let them go over the edge standing.
The current anchor is not in a good location for assisting newbs over the edge. Me do not like that rappel.
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[Canyonater]

I noticed you are using single rope technique with a biner block and you have your pull chord deployed. Just for the record, this is exactly what caused the girl to fall from that ledge in 2008. She clipped the wrong side of the biner block and she did not have a safety tether, which I also noticed you were not using.

2008 Pine Creek Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthread.php?31351

Ok, here I go having to defend against technique critiques.....I was the last one down, everyone else went single line on the biner block and pull side was still up top in the bag. The main rope is only 120ft so obviously I need to tie a pull side. I drop the pull side down cause Im obviously not gonna deploy it while on rappel and then I head back up to do a camp check, video shows me coming back to the anchor. I know im gonna be using a gopro with my left hand and wont be able to unclip a tether once on the rope so I forgo using my tether which was on me (I don't carry it just cause I like extra weight) and as a measure of safety I connect to the line farther back from the edge. Knowing I have no safety I take a good amount of time quadruple checking everything before I load the anchor. This was not shown on the video, if you wanna see it let me know, its a long boring section I figure I'd edit out. The block was already rigged and I quadruple checked it, I suppose you'd rather me go double on a knot and worry about both lines going through my ATS cleanly while holding a gopro in one hand? Is that any better? Yeah I could've skipped using the gopro but I felt the risk was mitigated wih extra caution and verification on my part. And in the end I prefer single strand.....nothing wrong with that.

[Canyonater]

I don't think you're understanding what Shane is telling you.
There is NO sense in using SRT if you throw all your rope down.
One of the idea's behind SRT is to have at least half your rope still at the top for what if's....
If your going to throw both ends down, you just as well rap double and alleviate the potential for confusion, as Shane mentioned,getting on the blocked side of rope by mistake,is one

If you're concerned with a pull, (which you never should be on the last rap in Pine Cr)., test the pull just prior to the last person getting on rappel.
The last person should have the smarts to re-rig if necessary and split the rope, while descending, as necessary, for a good pull.

Obviously you havent watched the video but I didnt have a single rope long enough to go double. Im not gonna rap on a bend just for the sake of going double strand. I was last one down so obviously I gotta toss all my line down or is there a miraculous way to toss the pull side down once im at the bottom?!?

[oldno7]

No--I obviously did watch the video...

If you read who i quoted and responded to, it was gedcock, he wrote this:

"The only time I've found this technique helpful is when I know the rope doesn't pull well. Always have the first person down do a test pull!"

Which is very bad advice!!

[oldno7]

On another note--- A biner block is NOT and never has been a contingency set up...
It can be converted to one if you have the know how(which takes time)
If you want a contingency set up--use a contingency set up..
If you have an experienced group and just want to rappel single strand, use a biner/knot block.
Trying to figure out how to lower someone, hanging in the air on the last rap in Pine Cr. while using a biner block....
Well lets just say I hope you don't also have a knot, tying your 2 ropes together, also on the blocked side!!!
It's all about understanding the tools in your toolbox, not just saying you have them, cause you got them on the internet.
Hands on experience and repetition, is the gold standard.........

[Bo_Beck]

No--I obviously did watch the video...

If you read who i quoted and responded to, it was gedcock, he wrote this:

"The only time I've found this technique helpful is when I know the rope doesn't pull well. Always have the first person down do a test pull!"

Which is very bad advice!!

I've used this technique numerous times both SRT and DRT over the years. I'd better rethink I guess?!

[oldno7]

I've used this technique numerous times both SRT and DRT over the years. I'd better rethink I guess?!

You need to re-think having the first person do a test pull?
I was always of the impression that if you are blocking one side of a rope, it was a good idea to leave the other half of the rope on top of the rappel for what if's?
So a test pull prior to the last person on rappel would sound prudent, rather than tossing down both strands on a "blocked" rope....

[Bo_Beck]

You need to re-think having the first person do a test pull?
I was always of the impression that if you are blocking one side of a rope, it was a good idea to leave the other half of the rope on top of the rappel for what if's?
So a test pull prior to the last person on rappel would sound prudent, rather than tossing down both strands on a "blocked" rope....

Last person down. Able to get the pull side to someone standing around at the bottom. "Visual" is key. Have that person below give a tug just to see that all the mechanics are clean and free. Rappel on blocked side and off the end. As swimming to bank, have person below pull the rope down. DRT....have person below give a tug to see if all is lubed up and ready to go. "Visual" not as key!

[Bo_Beck]

You need to re-think having the first person do a test pull?
I was always of the impression that if you are blocking one side of a rope, it was a good idea to leave the other half of the rope on top of the rappel for what if's?
So a test pull prior to the last person on rappel would sound prudent, rather than tossing down both strands on a "blocked" rope....

I do understand......keep rope up on top for contingency although for all rappellers until last person down.

[Mountaineer]

So a test pull prior to the last person on rappel would sound prudent, rather than tossing down both strands on a "blocked" rope....

Ya, for sure. If the rope pull looks clean, I've always deployed the pull rope/side with the last person coming down.

If the pull looks at all questionable, then have the 2nd to last person test it. And when you come down (last person), watch above you on how the ropes sit on the rock (away from snags), and make sure they don't cross. Sometimes easier said than done.

I haven't got a rope stuck yet, but I'm still young in canyons and my day may come...

[Canyonater]

I noticed also. You just reach over and grab the 'correct' line, but ohhh it would be so easy to grab wrong and without a safety? I would think even with all adults a safety tether should be automatic. 90% of accidents are human error. Last rap, fun canyon, maybe tired or cold, thinking about photo ops. Again, why single rappel with both ropes hanging there?? And yes like Shane pointed 1st time I did last rap of PC I realized we were walking over platform of debris that could easily collapse - food for thought!

I was the last one down, everyone else went single line on the biner block and pull side was still up top in the bag. The main rope is only 120ft so obviously I need to tie a pull side. I drop the pull side down cause Im obviously not gonna deploy it while on rappel and then I head back up to do a camp check, video shows me coming back to the anchor. I know im gonna be using a gopro with my left hand and wont be able to unclip a tether once on the rope so I forgo using my tether which was on me (I don't carry it just cause I like extra weight) and as a measure of safety I connect to the line farther back from the edge. Knowing I have no safety I take a good amount of time quadruple checking everything before I load the anchor. This was not shown on the video, if you wanna see it let me know, its a long boring section I figure I'd edit out.

As far as the face palm question about why I went single rappel with both ropes hanging there....IF you watched the video it wasn't a single rope with both sides hanging there, 2 ropes were tied together. The block was already rigged, Would you rather me go double strand on a knotted line and also have to worry about both lines going through my ATS cleanly while holding a gopro in one hand? We are hopefully all adults here, I chose to use my gopro and because of that I chose not to use a tether or double line cause for me it would unnecessarily complicate things which is also dangerous. Because of this I went over the top checking everything before getting on rappel........risk managed...

[canyonguru]

CANYONATER SAID
I chose to use my gopro and because of that I chose not to use a tether or double line cause for me it would unnecessarily complicate things which is also dangerous

well look at the bright side when you fall becuase you are more worried about your GOPRO camera, at least you will have a video of the entire fall to show us if you survive.


Shane i haven't done any class c canyons but you are right that is when the block would be more prudent to use.

[Slipknot]

CANYONATER SAID
I chose to use my gopro and because of that I chose not to use a tether or double line cause for me it would unnecessarily complicate things which is also dangerous

well look at the bright side when you fall becuase you are more worried about your GOPRO camera, at least you will have a video of the entire fall to show us if you survive.


Shane i haven't done any class c canyons but you are right that is when the block would be more prudent to use.

I am perplexed on why you seem so concerned with Caonyonater's technique for safety when you don't even where a helmet yourself.

Everyone takes risks when they are in a canyon whether it is scrambling up exposed 4th class terrain, not clipping into an anchor for safety, sketchy down climbs, sketchy anchors, etc. I love how everyone can be so judgmental.

[Sandstone Addiction]

Hey @Canyonater , I personally enjoyed the video and it's helps me tremendously in making a decision. Not many pics or video from that view, most are from bottom looking up. Thanks for posting it.

No need to get defensive about the critique. It's good to have, and I appreciate, other folks looking at what we do, questioning it, and offering advise. I have learned a lot from @Mountaineer and the way he handles constructive criticism as sometimes it seemed offensive, but he always handles it in style.

[Canyonater]

CANYONATER SAID
I chose to use my gopro and because of that I chose not to use a tether or double line cause for me it would unnecessarily complicate things which is also dangerous

well look at the bright side when you fall becuase you are more worried about your GOPRO camera, at least you will have a video of the entire fall to show us if you survive.


Shane i haven't done any class c canyons but you are right that is when the block would be more prudent to use.

That doesn't make any sense....I chose to use the gopro and because of this I did extra checks and verification so that the risk ended up being a wash. If the ledge was sloped or had some other risk then yeah I would have chose to tether in and skip the gopro, I made the assessment and there was no additional risk the way I did it.......this sport is inherently dangerous.....just cause someone chooses to downclimb a drop vs rappel one doesn't make them idiots.....they evaluate the situation according to their own skills and how they want to experience it. With your argument you might as well stay home cause that is the safest thing to do. This rap is straight forward, if I was trying to do this on the multi-stage rap in Heaps or in a Class C then you'd have a point cause there would be no way to counter the additional risk.

[Canyonater]

I am perplexed on why you seem so concerned with Caonyonater's technique for safety when you don't even where a helmet yourself.

Everyone takes risks when they are in a canyon whether it is scrambling up exposed 4th class terrain, not clipping into an anchor for safety, sketchy down climbs, sketchy anchors, etc. I love how everyone can be so judgmental.

Exactly!

[Canyonater]

Hey @Canyonater , I personally enjoyed the video and it's helps me tremendously in making a decision. Not many pics or video from that view, most are from bottom looking up. Thanks for posting it.

No need to get defensive about the critique. It's good to have, and I appreciate, other folks looking at what we do, questioning it, and offering advise. I have learned a lot from @Mountaineer and the way he handles constructive criticism as sometimes it seemed offensive, but he always handles it in style.

No problem glad it helped. I don't mind constructive criticism but when I get face palms and down talk I get annoyed....