Scout Training?

[Kuya]

Which takes me back to my origianl comment to Kuya. "Good Luck"


Yes, I use the Guide to Safe Scouting and BSA Caving Policy with every caving trip we go on. These policys are very simple. And the best thing is the Caving Policy requires you to have caving experience but not days of BSA training and testing. But some day soon I'm sure it will.

UNPC has a pretty extensive caving policy now. have you talked to Debbie Spoons (The UNPC Caving Chairperson). From talking to her any scout troop that wants to go caving needs to take a training from her. There is also list of approved caves that BSA Troops can go into.

[whansen]

No I haven't talked to her. But I have talk to GSLC people. It would be interesting to see what UNPC has built in addition to the national policy.

[airman]

BSA National recently updated its climbing web page. It includes a link to download the recently-released manual, Belay On, which I believe is a replacement for Topping Out.

[geckobiker]

Below is a link on climbing from BSA National. It describes the how the Climbing Program must be run on a Council Level if they want to train their own BSA Level I or BSA Level II instructors. I am not sure if UNPC has their program approved yet. That would be a great question to Debbie Spoons.

http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/COPE.aspx

Unit climbing MUST follow the 8 principles in the Climb on Safely document. Please read and understand before you take youth out on ropes. It is very clear.

[geckobiker]

.

[bbjones]

BSA has made a lot of changes.

I hope people will understand the need to have trained instructors.

Brandt

[Kuya]

BSA has made a lot of changes.

I hope people will understand the need to have trained instructors.

Brandt

what do you think of the new Belay On book. To me it tries to encompass way too much information. I think the BSA should keep COPE and Climbing separate.

[moab mark]

Can anyone list what training is required to take Scouts Canyoneering now? Every website seems to contradict another one?

[geckobiker]

The definitive answer is found in the document "Climb on Safely". See the section on qualified instructors. There is a council that has a Canyoneering training program that has been approved by BSA National, and some others are working on getting approved.


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[Kuya]

Can anyone list what training is required to take Scouts Canyoneering now? Every website seems to contradict another one?

Need have specialized training.... whatever that means.

[whansen]

It seems like this thread just keeps going round and round.

[Kuya]

It seems like this thread just keeps going round and round.

It is, but at least the circle is getting tighter. the UNPC actually has a legit BSA Climbing Level I & II certification course now. The first class was held in January, and there are a few others in the Council scheduled for this month.

Canyoneering is still a mess though.

[moab mark]

It is, but at least the circle is getting tighter. the UNPC actually has a legit BSA Climbing Level I & II certification course now. The first class was held in January, and there are a few others in the Council scheduled for this month.

Canyoneering is still a mess though.

Yea it's discouraging. IMO BSA or those that have been put in charge of establishing the policy have made the process so difficult and cumbersome that they do not want Scouts Canyoneering. Be nice if there was a list of Canyons with a reasonable amount of training you can take Scouts thru. Orderville Subway come to mind.

[moab mark]

Has any Bogleyite gone thru GSLC complete program and are now able to take Scouts Canyoneering? If you have could you give us a precise list of what was required?

[moab mark]

http://www.gslc-bsa.org/document/cou...g-policy/74343

Does anyone know where the link is to be a Canyon Leader? Also what Canyons are on the list for a Level 1 Canyon Leader?

[geckobiker]

I have been thru all of the training. A couple of issues sharing the training. It is only valid in the GSLC. Currently there is no plan for any cross council training with the UNPC, for a lot of reasons. The UNPC climbing program has not been approved by national. Specialized training I read as a amga guide with some sort of canyoneering endorsement, or equivalent.

I know this is a mess. I wish some leadership in the UNPC would pull their heads out and realize what a disaster they have created because " they are the enlightened council".


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[Mac]

Geckobiker, you may need an extra large bucket of popcorn before reading the following.

I seriously doubt that the UNPC has had their program approved. Why would BSA approve a council's program that doesn’t follow the prescribed curriculum?

Interesting. 35 hour course using Topping out. BSA released their new manual, Belay On, earlier this year. Why didn’t the UNPC use the new book?

From one of the links in an above post, I downloaded their course syllabi and found them to be very informative. There is also a great resource describing the process for councils to get their training programs evaluated.

In the NCAP manual it says that the prerequisite for Climbing Level II instructor is to be a Climbing Level I instructor. (pages sq-409-2,3)

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/ou...df/430-056.pdf


Kuya, were you all ready a Climbing Level I instructor before you took the Level II course?


Climbing Level I instructor course = 26 hours

Climbing Level II instructor course = 42 hours

If I can do my math correctly that adds up to 68 hours of training not 35.

This is just to take scouts on a simple top-rope climb or rappel.

The AMGA requires 43 hours of training and assessment not including their prerequisites that are extensive for their single pitch instructor.

As I looked over the BSA courses, they seamed to involve team building and other BSA type items. This could account for the additional hours. I loved that the first lesson plan after “getting acquainted” is “ Leave No Trace.” There are other lessons like “Basic Maintenance” that don’t seam to apply to taking scouts up AF canyon. Perhaps, this is where Kuya’s class was shorter than prescribed in the training syllabi. Kuya also made the statement that he thinks the new book has too much information. I found just the opposite. There is little to no mention of Canyoneering, Ice climbing, lead climbing, aid climbing, canopy tours, technical caving or even much about rescue techniques. I wouldn’t be surprised that future books dabble in or include theses items. A future book will probably include the information from the scouts caving booklet.

It looks to me that the BSA is trying to actually develop climbing instructors. That is to say single pitch instructors. Their program appears to be inline with national and, one could argue, international standards.

I will ask the question again. Why would the boy scouts approve a program that doesn’t follow the prescribed course curriculum?


AND THEN THERE IS CANYONEERING

When I read Climb on Safely, for canyoneering it looks as if a top-rope “guide” is the minimum amount of training required who then has “specific training and skill in instructing” canyoneering.

A year or so ago, I spoke with a guy from the scouts in Salt Lake county. They seem to have a program for training canyon guides. I really doubt their program is even close to a true canyon guide. I was also told that the basic training to go canyoneering all starts with, using a term outside of BSA but one that I would hope all on this forum would understand, an AMGA single pitch guide who then has canyoneering specific training as an instructor. I don’t think there are even 10 individuals here on Bogley with anything close to this training level.

I only mention the following because most of the scouts in Utah are associated with the Mormon church. There is document where the Mormon prophet says you can go climbing with “trained or certified guides.” I won’t debate what “certified” means. It looks as if the Mormon church understands that to go climbing or rappelling you need to go with someone that is properly trained.

The question is continually asked, "What is required?" There are a lot of people on Bogley who have called the council in Salt Lake County and didn’t get the answer they were looking for. They then bitched and complained about it. There are even a few individuals who started and decided they didn’t want to invest the time to do it. Sarcastically stated and asked, “I’ve done pine creek before. Why can’t I take the scouts down Imlay?”

I was told by the guy in Salt Lake, that they had been trying for years to get all the councils in Utah to get a canyoneering training programs that would be acceptable to everyone. From what I understand, the council up north has a canyoneering specific program that is just for their area and doesn’t apply to other councils. Their program was probably scrutinized by their attorneys and their uppity-ups. I would wager, their program is just approved for their council.

A year or so ago I ran into a group of scouts from Arizona who had just completed a trip down Pine Creek. They were lead by some canyon guides from the council in Salt Lake. One of the scoutmasters told me that they were going to develop a canyoneering program for their scouts. I wouldn't doubt it if they have done just that.

I also ran into a group of scouts in Colorado doing some ice climbing. I was told they have a fully approved ice climbing program in their area.

Liability. We all seem to blame the attorneys. I tend to blame people who think they are better than they really are. They have an accident. Then the attorneys get involved.

We all push the limit. The activities I enjoy have a window of safety. Sometimes that window is small. I hope I will always return home safely. I hope my companions and friends will return home safely. I hope that those whom I have convinced I know what I am doing will always return home safely.

Are we/you willing to take responsibility for another person’s life?

I too hope Kuya and friends can get this figured out.

Geckobiker, did you finish your bucket of popcorn?

Mac

[Kuya]

Kuya, were you all ready a Climbing Level I instructor before you took the Level II course?


Climbing Level I instructor course = 26 hours

Climbing Level II instructor course = 42 hours

If I can do my math correctly that adds up to 68 hours of training not 35.

This is just to take scouts on a simple top-rope climb or rappel.

The AMGA requires 43 hours of training and assessment not including their prerequisites that are extensive for their single pitch instructor.

As I looked over the BSA courses, they seamed to involve team building and other BSA type items. This could account for the additional hours. I loved that the first lesson plan after “getting acquainted” is “ Leave No Trace.” There are other lessons like “Basic Maintenance” that don’t seam to apply to taking scouts up AF canyon. Perhaps, this is where Kuya’s class was shorter than prescribed in the training syllabi. Kuya also made the statement that he thinks the new book has too much information. I found just the opposite. There is little to no mention of Canyoneering, Ice climbing, lead climbing, aid climbing, canopy tours, technical caving or even much about rescue techniques. I wouldn’t be surprised that future books dabble in or include theses items. A future book will probably include the information from the scouts caving booklet.


I too hope Kuya and friends can get this figured out.

Slow day at work haha, I actually read your whole post LOL!

When I referred to the new book containing to much info, I was complaining about them combining COPE and climbing. I would rather that content be separated. Just thought I'd make that clear :)

Additionally, I'd rather not talk about the 4 climbing certification classes I took in the UNPC since 2012. They made me think I was covered by bsa and actually trained to go climbing and canyoneering. Come to find out, I was most likely ruining programs with out the bsa really backing me.... anyway, yes I was supposedly level 1 & 2 "certified" before this class.

The climbing director in the UNPC works closely with national. (At least she says she does.) The last class she did was really good. I feel that leaders that take that class will leave prepared to run unit level climbing programs safely.

Canyoneering policy had not been made.

[Kuya]

http://www.utahscouts.org/event/1677630

That is the link for anyone who wants to participate in the next round of Climbing training for the UNPC.

[moab mark]

So I talked to Trappers Trails yesterday. Still somewhat confused but according to them you need to have Climb on Certification and Commercial training. They consider ACA or Dark Horse or ...... as qualified training. Exactly how much training you need they didn't seem to have an answer. They will not accept UNPC training. They will accept GSLC training.