Scout Training?

[Spidey]

Lots of good information, and lots of bad information flying around on this thread. I will try to share what I know very quickly. I am on the UNPC climbing committee and the UNPC has no canyoneering policy and does not enforce any of the vertical world policies in general, despite some of our's best efforts. 12 Finger outdoors is not authorized to issue any kind of certification, they have been given more than 1 phone call and letters telling them to cease and desist. I know the climbing committee for UNPC has sent them as well as Brandt from GSLC. They have been encouraged to continue training, but to immediately stop giving scout leaders a false sense of security with a stupid certificate.

GSLC does not recognize other organizations training for canyoneering. I find this curious personally as Rich, Myself, and Clark wrote/decided on the curriculum for them 4-5 years ago, and trained their first group of leaders. I find it curious, but respect their decision.

UNPC is a complete and total FLUSTER CUCK, they are oblivious, stupid, ignorant. They will sign off on any tour permit that comes through. According to Scott Card once they do that they just put themselves in first position for liability FWIW. I will also say that there is no one in the UNPC right now authorized to issue a climbing or canyon leader certificate of any kind, unless we recently added a climbing director somewhere that I am unaware of.

Now as for training please please get some as much as you can, and get as much seasoning on your own as you can.

I didn't start this for this purpose, but when it comes to training Scout Leaders, Clark and I ran a Venturing crew for 6 years. We have special insight into what Scout leaders need to know. Bottom line I am going to toot our horn a bit. For scout leaders we provide better training than anyone out there.

If you have further questions about any of this P.M. me with your phone # and I will call you.

[burnsdye]

With all this talk of the Tour and Activity Plan, I wonder if any of you have actually filled out a Tour and Activity Plan in the last year??? Gone away is the old paper form. Now, Scout leaders fill out an online form at myscouting.scouting.org. On step 6, it asks you if you will be participating in any climbing activities. If you say yes, then it asks you to select which adult has completed Climb on Safely, CPR/AED, First Aid, and Hazardous Weather. If you don't select anyone, then before you submit the Tour and Activity Plan it makes you fill in a checkbox saying that you promise to have an adult there with the required training. Thus there is no possible way to get a tour permit approved if you don't have the proper training. From a liability standpoint they are covered.

[Kuya]

With all this talk of the Tour and Activity Plan, I wonder if any of you have actually filled out a Tour and Activity Plan in the last year??? Gone away is the old paper form. Now, Scout leaders fill out an online form at myscouting.scouting.org. On step 6, it asks you if you will be participating in any climbing activities. If you say yes, then it asks you to select which adult has completed Climb on Safely, CPR/AED, First Aid, and Hazardous Weather. If you don't select anyone, then before you submit the Tour and Activity Plan it makes you fill in a checkbox saying that you promise to have an adult there with the required training. Thus there is no possible way to get a tour permit approved if you don't have the proper training. From a liability standpoint they are covered.

Yup :) have done this. we have 3 leaders in our various units that have participated in the UNPC recommended climbing training program from 12 Finger.

[Kuya]

Lots of good information, and lots of bad information flying around on this thread. I will try to share what I know very quickly. I am on the UNPC climbing committee and the UNPC has no canyoneering policy and does not enforce any of the vertical world policies in general, despite some of our's best efforts. 12 Finger outdoors is not authorized to issue any kind of certification, they have been given more than 1 phone call and letters telling them to cease and desist. I know the climbing committee for UNPC has sent them as well as Brandt from GSLC. They have been encouraged to continue training, but to immediately stop giving scout leaders a false sense of security with a stupid certificate.

GSLC does not recognize other organizations training for canyoneering. I find this curious personally as Rich, Myself, and Clark wrote/decided on the curriculum for them 4-5 years ago, and trained their first group of leaders. I find it curious, but respect their decision.

UNPC is a complete and total FLUSTER CUCK, they are oblivious, stupid, ignorant. They will sign off on any tour permit that comes through. According to Scott Card once they do that they just put themselves in first position for liability FWIW. I will also say that there is no one in the UNPC right now authorized to issue a climbing or canyon leader certificate of any kind, unless we recently added a climbing director somewhere that I am unaware of.

Now as for training please please get some as much as you can, and get as much seasoning on your own as you can.

I didn't start this for this purpose, but when it comes to training Scout Leaders, Clark and I ran a Venturing crew for 6 years. We have special insight into what Scout leaders need to know. Bottom line I am going to toot our horn a bit. For scout leaders we provide better training than anyone out there.

If you have further questions about any of this P.M. me with your phone # and I will call you.

Ahh.. I notice that the UNPC IS changing things. the webpage that use to tell us that we were to contact 12 finger outdoor co is not longer available. LOL this is very interesting. I wonder what they require now. A few months ago when I asked the UNPC council members about Canyoneering, the had me call the owner of 12 Finger. yeah, he was basically useless. Maybe I will start bugging the scout office again just for fun

[Kuya]

It is interesting that with all the posts in this thread and similar threads on this and other forums where my contact information can be located, my phone has yet to ring.

There is both a lot of miss information and even some correct information found is this thread.

I encourage you to contact your local council office and climbing committee for further assistance.

However, some BSA councils have programs which are teaching and requiring levels of training which have always been insufficient compared to the requirements for “INSTRUCTOR” from the BSA.

Requirements change and will continue to change.

In 2014, councils will have to have their local training programs reviewed and approved by BSA National. This is not the forum to discuss this. Not all councils will have approved training programs.

That being said ……..

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

The Boy Scouts of America seeks adult leaders who exemplify, teach and inspire the traits in their mission statement.

I will not enumerate all the requirements, time and cost of BSA and local council climbing, rappelling and, where approved, canyoneering training programs.

Currently it states in Climb On Safely the requirements for Unit climbing and rappelling activities.

Climb On Safely can be found @:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/430-099.pdf

A BSA Level II Instructor is one source. (Climbing Lead Instructor and Director are being phased out by the BSA as their training expires.)

There are also other organizations where QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS can be located. An INSTRUCTOR from AMGA, NOLS, and other professional institutes are enumerated. Note the word “instructors”.

There are industry standards for the organizations listed.

The BSA Level II Instructor course is just that “An Instructor Course”. The course is not a climbing course. The course teaches and evaluates a candidates knowledge, skill, understanding and judgment of climbing, rigging, management and many other essentials to be coming an instructor.

In Climb On Safely it states, “Qualified instruction is essential to conducting a safe climbing/rappelling activity. Some people who claim to be qualified or have had some experience with climbing or rappelling may lack sufficient knowledge to safely conduct these activities.”

There are requirements for INSTRUCTORS for a simple climbing/rappelling activity at the local climbing crag.

For canyoneering an INSTRUCTOR should meet the minimum requirements for running a climbing/rappelling activity and ALSO have “specific training and skill in instructing these activities” meaning canyoneering.

My contact information can be found at the bottom of the link below.

http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/lea...s-course/32030

To become an instructor it is a process.

I can tell you the rewards are worth it.

Brandt Jones

COPE and Climbing Committee Chairman
Great Salt Lake Council
Member BSA Western Region COPE and Climbing Task Force
Western Region Area Advocate, BSA
Training Program Evaluator, BSA

@bbjones,

SO... when I called you earlier this year I was made to understand that your canyoneering training would mean nothing in the UNPC council. however, I would still LOVE to take your training just to better develop my skills. What is the cost and when is the next class?

Additionally, after reading all of your comments, I am still unsure about what I need to do to successfully take my scouts Canyoneering in the UNPC. Are you aware of what I need to do to be legit in the councils eyes? or is just getting my Tour Plan approved sufficient?

[airman]

Are you aware of what I need to do to be legit in the councils eyes? or is just getting my Tour Plan approved sufficient?

In terms of finding out what you need to be legit, you should talk to someone with authority on the subject, as has been previously stated in this thread. I don't think anything that would be posted on Bogley, other than a reference to other policies, would be authoritative. I appreciate Brandt providing an open invitation to call him.

I'm neither an authority from the BSA or the church, but let me take a crack at your question about Tour Plans, FWIW. For the reasons outlined below, I don't think that "just getting my Tour Plan approved" is sufficient.

I think your assumptions about Tour Plans are embodied in this statement:

So what if you get a approval (approved Tour Plan) from your Church Leader (aka Bishop) and Council? We have been on a few canyoneering trips with the scouts and every time we are clear about our plans, and both the church and the council approve our Tour Plan. To me that that says we are good to go! We have received the blessing of both the charter organization and the national parks council!

As you probably know, the BSA recently changed from a paper Tour "Permit" to an online "Tour and Activity Plan." As a part of that change, Tour Plans are no longer "approved" by the BSA. See the Tour and Activity Plan FAQ which states:

The local council reviews plans but does not approve them.

So what does it mean to submit a Tour and Activity Plan to your council then? It basically means that you are notifying the Council of your activity and certifying that you will follow BSA policies. Below are few quotes from the paper Tour and Activity Plan, which is basically the same as the online version.

Just above the signature line for the Committee chair or chartered organization representative (which may be signed by your Bishop) and the signature of the Adult Leader (presumably the canyoneer Scout leader) it states:

We certify that appropriate planning has been conducted using the Sweet 16 of BSA Safety, qualified and trained supervision is in place, permissions are secured, health records have been reviewed, and adult leaders have read and are in possession of a current copy of Guide to Safe Scouting and other appropriate resources.

It also states elsewhere in the form:

If climbing/rappelling is included, then Climb On Safely must be followed.

And it also provides this sobering warning:

The BSA’s general liability insurance policy provides coverage for bodily injury or property damage that arises out of an official Scouting activity as defined by the Guide to Safe Scouting. Volunteers, units, chartered organizations, and local councils that engage in unauthorized activities are jeopardizing their insurance coverage. PLEASE DO NOT PUT YOURSELF AT RISK. (emphasis added)

So basically, when you submit a Tour Plan, it isn't approved. You are saying you are going to follow the Guide to Safe Scouting and will comply with Climb on Safely, and if you don't, you won't be covered by the BSA's insurance (and by implication are violating BSA policies -- and LDS Church policy, I'll get to that in a minute). So what do those publications state about canyoneering?

Units that elect to participate in … canyoneering should receive training from a nationally recognized organization that trains climbing instructors.

2. Qualified Instructors
A qualified climbing/rappelling instructor ... must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A capable instructor has experience in teaching climbing and rappelling to youth, acknowledges personal limitations, and exercises good judgment in a variety of circumstances.
...

Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:
• BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)
• National Outdoor Leadership School
• Wilderness Education Association
• American Mountain Guides Association
• Eastern Mountain Sports
• University or college climbing/rappelling instructors
• Professional Climbing Guide Institute
• Professional Climbing Instructors Association

For specialized climbing activities such as lead climbing, sport climbing, ice climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, and caving, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing these activities are required. (emphasis added)

So, to summarize about Tour Plans, they are not "approved" by the BSA. You agree to follow the the Guide to Safe Scouting and will comply with Climb on Safely, which requires you to have "Qualified Instructors." 12 Fingers isn't on the list of approved organzations to train instructors. So, if you submit a Tour and Activity Plan, and your training is from 12 Fingers, you don't have "qualified instructors", and you jeopardize being covered by BSA insurance.

But, you ask, what if your Bishop approves your Tour and Activity Plan? Your Bishop is required to follow BSA policies pursuant to LDS Church policies. The Scouting Handbook for Church Units in the United States (2012 version) states:

8.9 Safety
Priesthood and Scouting leaders should refer regularly to Handbook 2, chapter 13, for policies and guidelines regarding activities and safety. Leaders should also comply with guidelines found in the Guide to Safe Scouting, published by the Boy Scouts of America. This publication is available online at www.scouting.org or at local BSA council offices. Additional safety guidelines can be found on LDS.org under “Safety in Church Activities.” (emphasis added)

In addition, your Bishop may sign Tour Plans, and when he does so or otherwise approves a tour plan, he should ensure that BSA policies are followed:

4.1 Bishop
The bishop provides general direction for Scouting in the ward and ensures that it is properly organized and functioning as outlined in this publication and in Handbook 2 (8.13.4, 11.5.3). He is registered and serves as the executive officer for Scouting units chartered by the ward.


4.2 Bishop’s Counselors
3. See that Tour Plans are completed; signed by the bishop, the COR, or the committee chair; and submitted.
(emphasis added)

So, if your Bishop approves an activity that is not in conformance with BSA polices and LDS church polices, he risks jeopardizing BSA insurance coverage (as stated above) and I would suspect also jeopardizes LDS Church insurance coverage. I suspect your Bishop is busy dealing with big problems and not investigating the finer points of BSA policies; help him out by telling him exactly what the rules are, and be willing to follow them.

Don't despair, there is a way to become properly trained and follow the applicable policies. Give Brandt or someone from your local council a call. They will help you. There is a way to do it within the rules. It's not easy, but it's worth it.

[kiwi_outdoors]

from my many years in Scouting T42 San Mateo), as an ASM and trained leader, I will say that oversight of BSA policies was weak. Protect yourself and your Scouts by getting appropriate training - else do not lead a trip.

[Kuya]

@airman. That is one of the best review on scouting policy and tour plans I have seen. Thank you! It makes things pretty clear.

The only other question I have now is HOW DO YOU GET CERTIFIED TO TAKE THE BOYS CANYONEERING IN THE UNPC?!?!?!?!? When I have communicated with the UNPC office (via email and phone calls) they NEVER make it very clear about what I need to do. Last time they told me to take the online courses and then talk to the Owner of 12 Finger Outdoors Adventure. (Last time I talked to them was April 2013)

At that time, the UNPC had a statement their website that encouraged us to work with 12 Finger Outdoor adventure to get the training needed to take the boys climbing. That website page no longer exists, so I am assuming they are in the process of changing the policy.

Anyway, I am still super confused about what I need to do to get trained to take my boys canyoneering in the UNPC and have the blessing of the BSA.

[Mountaineer]

HOW DO YOU GET CERTIFIED TO TAKE THE BOYS CANYONEERING IN THE UNPC?!?!?!?!?

Here is the list, however due to what you've run into with 12 Finger and the varies statements around policy..., I would recommend becoming a BSA Level II lead instructor.


Sources of qualified climbing and rappelling instructors include, but are not limited to, the following:
• BSA Level II instructor (climbing director or lead instructor)
• National Outdoor Leadership School
• Wilderness Education Association
• American Mountain Guides Association
• Eastern Mountain Sports
• University or college climbing/rappelling instructors
• Professional Climbing Guide Institute
• Professional Climbing Instructors Association

[Kuya]

Thank you mountaineer :) I have seen that list before, and have assumed that is what one needs to get to be able to lead a climbing program. I wonder if that would be ok to take the kids Canyoneering as well??

Looks like I need to start bugging the scout office again.

[Mountaineer]

I wonder if that would be ok to take the kids Canyoneering as well??

Depends on your council, important to check with your climbing chair. My understanding is that it may, as only GSLC has a canyoneering program in place in Utah.

[airman]

Depends on your council, important to check with your climbing chair. My understanding is that it may, as only GSLC has a canyoneering program in place in Utah.

Good discussion here. I appreciate your great attitude, Kuya, notwithstanding the frustration!!!

Regarding Mountaineer's comment above, I don't think it is council specific. Again, I'm just some guy without authority to say so, but I think you have to have qualified climbing instructors to run a climbing/rappelling activity AND IN ADDITION you have to have specialized training for a "specialized climbing activity" such as canyoneering. In other words, you have to have be a Climbing Instructor AND be certified in Canyoneering. The Guide to Safe Scouting and Climb on Safely both require additional, specialized training for canyoneering. And since each Council has to follow Climb on Safely, I doubt a local Council could get an exemption that says you only have to be a climbing instructor, and not have the specialized training referenced in Climb on Safely. Here are the specific BSA National requirements (as of the date of this post - they will probably change and be updated):
[COLOR=#000000][I]
[Quote=Guide to Safe Scouting]
Units that elect to participate in

[kiwi_outdoors]

From memory: as long as you do not lead climb on rope - you are essentially rappelling and hiking and swimming when canyoneering. Where you really run afoul of BSA is that BSA wants a safety belay on all rapellers (i.e., two ropes).

[Mountaineer]

Good discussion here.

Regarding Mountaineer's comment above, I don't think it is council specific.

And since each Council has to follow Climb on Safely, I doubt a local Council could get an exemption that says you only have to be a climbing instructor, and not have the specialized training referenced in Climb on Safely.

Thanks airman, excellent points and discussion. Appreciate also how you presented the facts here. Great etiquette.

Each council must submit their plan/policy to National, which is then approved. For trapper trails, specifically, I know that I'm approved (by the council and nationally) to guide scouts on canyoneering trips as I personally have a) Level II BSA instructor b) multiple canyoneering specific training classes c) experience. Doesn't mean another Trapper Trail BSA leader would get the same approval.

So I stand by my previous statement. Best to call your climbing committee chair for your council to make sure you meet the council and national guidelines.

Which brings up an important note, at least for Trapper Trails. Trapper Trails is working on a specific canyoneering program (we lack it right now), similar to what GSLC has done. Hopefully we have that in place by the end of the calendar year.

[airman]

Thanks airman, excellent points and discussion. Appreciate also how you presented the facts here. Great etiquette.

Each council must submit their plan/policy to National, which is then approved. For trapper trails, specifically, I know that I'm approved (by the council and nationally) to guide scouts on canyoneering trips as I personally have a) Level II BSA instructor b) multiple canyoneering specific training classes c) experience. Doesn't mean another Trapper Trail BSA leader would get the same approval.

So I stand by my previous statement. Best to call your climbing committee chair for your council to make sure you meet the council and national guidelines.

Which brings up an important note, at least for Trapper Trails. Trapper Trails is working on a specific canyoneering program (we lack it right now), similar to what GSLC has done. Hopefully we have that in place by the end of the calendar year.

Great clarification. Thank you.

[CLE]

What I take away from this thread and my scouting experience:

1) BSA needs to clarify its position on these items. Reasonably smart people should not have ​to go back and forth, guess, and debate like this to figure it out. I have been equally confused on various aspects of climbing, canyoneering, and caving requirements. Based on a reading of the guidelines I did a few years ago, I determined I was qualified to teach instructors, but not qualified to take scouts on the activities I was considering. ???

2) Training is very important. Unfortunately, we often don't realize the importance of training until after we have received it.

3) The leaders shoulder the responsibility for the safety of his scouts. If you think you're legally covered by a magical umbrella by following the guidelines as you understand them, you are a little naive. I could relate stories, but I don't want anyone resigning from scouting. Carry good personal liability insurance.

[Mountaineer]

What I take away from this thread and my scouting experience:

1) BSA needs to clarify its position on these items. Reasonably smart people should not have ​to go back and forth, guess, and debate like this to figure it out. I have been equally confused on various aspects of climbing, canyoneering, and caving requirements. Based on a reading of the guidelines I did a few years ago, I determined I was qualified to teach instructors, but not qualified to take scouts on the activities I was considering. ???

Ugh, yes - that is confusing! The issue is that GSLC has an approved canyoneering program, so the policy is clear. For others, leaders must work with their council in order to be approved until a program is put in place.

2) Training is very important. Unfortunately, we often don't realize the importance of training until after we have received it.

Yes, for sure, but I would propose also experience and skill. I say both, as many people can do a lot of canyons and gain a ton of experience, but still can lack skill. I also know canyoneers that are expert in skill/strength, who have never had any formal training. Most of us, need to take a few classes and go/learn from others.

BSA is taking on a huge liability by stating "you are ready". Technical risk. I know when I took the BSA class there were some that had very little practical experience. Even if they passed a written test and learned a few things there, I would be reluctant to send my sons with them until they had a lot more experience.

That is why a solid program is so important. It must weigh the amount of training/ability against the feasibility of volunteers going through a practical amount of training and tests.

Side topic: it may not make sense to invest/train leaders who are only taking their troop out once? Perhaps...

3) If you think you're legally covered by a magical umbrella by following the guidelines as you understand them, you are a little naive. I could relate stories, but I don't want anyone resigning from scouting. Carry good personal liability insurance.

Certainly fair advice, but not a requirement. I'm not an attorney, but I have spoken to several since this thread started (again). Cases that were lost seemed to be for grossly negligent reasons. You don't need a LLC or umbrella insurance.

However, you need to be solid in your skills and honest with yourself. Can you lead a canyon? Have you led before? Be responsible, follow all the rules (i.e. don't bring bike helmets), and plan the outing with precision. Take at least one more experienced canyoneer with you. Have them double check and challenge everything you do. Have the scouts challenge you. Pick a trip well within all abilities.

Have fun, and provide a memorable experience.

I remember when I did high adventure as a scout many years ago, it made a difference in my life.

What you do, as a volunteer leader; will last a lifetime and make a difference in scouts lives.

[Kuya]

Here is the response to one of the emails I sent yesterday. Looks like UNPC does have a chairman of the elusive council climbing committee. I will call Dan AGAIN for the bazillionth time, and see what is going on!





Also received this email just now:

[reverse_dyno]

I know! Avoid the whole issue and just do canyoneering trips as separate non-BSA activities. Then you do not need to deal with the LDS Church or the BSA. The BSA is going out of style in the rest of the country anyways. Let them do the ultra safe mommy approved trips. Then you can do the fun ones outside the BSA.

[airman]

Here is the response to one of the emails I sent yesterday. Looks like UNPC does have a chairman of the elusive council climbing committee. I will call Dan AGAIN for the bazillionth time, and see what is going on!





Also received this email just now:

Wow. I'm pretty sure some of this isn't correct. There have been a number of fairly significant changes this year.

I'd suggest taking Brandt up on his offer that was made earlier in this thread - give him a call.

I feel sorry for you, Kuya. What a frustrating mess!