Scout Training?

[Mountaineer]

Don't you need two cert leaders?

Yes, and with me being in Trapper Trails (you are GSLC?), my Lead Instructor status may not suffice. Check with GSLC, then PM me, directly, if that would work with their policies.

[moab mark]

We're trappers

[burnsdye]

According to this letter from the first presidency, http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared...march-2011.pdf, LDS Scout leaders are not allowed to take their Scouts rock climbing (and by inference canyoneering) even if they meet all the requirements from the BSA.

"Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases."

The ONLY way you can take your LDS troop canyoneering is if you hire a licensed guide (I assume that means insured) or go to a Scout-sponsored camp or High Adventure base.

[moab mark]

Supposedly getting training from GSL qualifies???

[Mountaineer]

"Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases."

Wow, that seems clear (thanks for sharing). Other options include:

a) join our troop ;-)
b) become a licensed guide yourself

[Kuya]

According to this letter from the first presidency, http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared...march-2011.pdf, LDS Scout leaders are not allowed to take their Scouts rock climbing (and by inference canyoneering) even if they meet all the requirements from the BSA.

"Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases."

The ONLY way you can take your LDS troop canyoneering is if you hire a licensed guide (I assume that means insured) or go to a Scout-sponsored camp or High Adventure base.

Here we go again :D

So what if you get a approval (approved Tour Plan) from your Church Leader (aka Bishop) and Council? We have been on a few canyoneering trips with the scouts and every time we are clear about our plans, and both the church and the council approve our Tour Plan. To me that that says we are good to go! We have received the blessing of both the charter organization and the national parks council!

[Mountaineer]

So what if you get a approval (approved Tour Plan) from your Church Leader (aka Bishop) and Council? We have been on a few canyoneering trips with the scouts and every time we are clear about our plans, and both the church and the council approve our Tour Plan. To me that that says we are good to go! We have received the blessing of both the charter organization and the national parks council!

Seems like you are good to go, as there may be an update from Church HQ that your local leaders have, or they have unit level approval?

[Kuya]

According to this letter from the first presidency, http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared...march-2011.pdf, LDS Scout leaders are not allowed to take their Scouts rock climbing (and by inference canyoneering) even if they meet all the requirements from the BSA.

"Plan activities that are safe and have minimal risk of injury or illness. Activities that pose greater risk, such as white-water rafting or rock climbing, should not be undertaken unless led by trained and licensed guides, or in conjunction with Scout-sponsored camps or High Adventure bases."

The ONLY way you can take your LDS troop canyoneering is if you hire a licensed guide (I assume that means insured) or go to a Scout-sponsored camp or High Adventure base.

So when I ask the UNPC about what I need to do to take the scouts canyoneering, and they email me and tell me to talk to 12 Finger Outdoor adventure and get certified with them. does that make me a trained guide??? I doubt it, but according to the UNPC, I have jumped through their hoops, and they approve my Tour Plans. shouldn't that make my canyoneering trip legit?

As far as the church is concerned? woudln't me getting that training now make me a "Trained" leader? After all i do have a certificate now ;) hehehe

[burley]

Supposedly getting training from GSL qualifies???

Yup.

It is actuall imposible to do a slot canyon exactly like BSA trains you too.

You'd be surprised. Scouts do canyons all over the place all the time, and do it BSA legal.

So about 200 hours probably spread out over several years, how many different ways can you tie a clove hitch? As Mr. Cabe states often "any monkey can rappel" or something like that. If you can't grasp the concept of taking groups Canyoneering in 4 8 to 10 hour Saturdays maybe Canyoneering is not for you. Make the group haul four times the amount of rope needed for each canyon and any problem should be able to be resolved. So if I start now my Son will be out of Scouts before we would be able to go.

Mark

A significant portion of the courses are focused on teaching you BSA regulations and on what to do when things go wrong. Honestly yes, becoming a BSA Canyon Leader is a lot of work, but a year is doable. And to become the 'second' qualified instructor is MUCH easier. And as mentioned the GSLC has a stellar crew of volunteers who will take your troop/crew out for the price of gas and a bit of planning.

If money is not an object does anyone have a list of what private companies can teach the Canyoneering part?

This is not an option for GSLC, other councils have other policies (though other's posts seem to indicate their policies may be changing?)

If anyone wants more info I'd contact the GSLC climbing course instructors as linked to previously, and take the course! Or if you just want to take your troop out then call your council and ask how you can make it happen. I did this two years ago and so far my troop has been led through 3 canyons by people who we didn't know but who were willing to use their experience (and BSA approval) to take our boys on adventures they still talk about. Pretty cool of them, regardless of the 'hoops'.

[canyonguru]

So this is what we do but i am not endorsing this what so ever.

1st we do file a tour permit with the BSA stating that we are going to zion national park to go hiking. This will cover us for everything besides canyons.

2. we then alos have the boys and parents sign a LDS church permission slip.

3 We have a Liability waver that releases the leaders, church ,BSA, and all adults going of any liablility if a boy is injured. We have had a laywer write it up for us so it is a leagal document. We then have the parents read it and sign it before we go on any canyoneering trips.

This way the church and the BSA will cover us for everything besides the actuall canyoneering part. So as soon as we drop out of the last rap in pine creek we are now hiking and are covered. At least this is the way i look at it and many other leaders here where i got the idea and paperwork from.

[ratagonia]

So this is what we do but i am not endorsing this what so ever.

1st we do file a tour permit with the BSA stating that we are going to zion national park to go hiking. This will cover us for everything besides canyons.

2. we then alos have the boys and parents sign a LDS church permission slip.

3 We have a Liability waver that releases the leaders, church ,BSA, and all adults going of any liablility if a boy is injured. We have had a laywer write it up for us so it is a leagal document. We then have the parents read it and sign it before we go on any canyoneering trips.

This way the church and the BSA will cover us for everything besides the actuall canyoneering part. So as soon as we drop out of the last rap in pine creek we are now hiking and are covered. At least this is the way i look at it and many other leaders here where i got the idea and paperwork from.

Yeah, well...

I'm not a lawyer, but there is a shade tree in my yard and I play one on the Interwebs.

Your Liability Waiver does not really do anything for you. Waivers do not cover you for gross negligence, and by going outside the system, you are, (the case could be made) de facto grossly negligent. You have done a good job of shielding the BSA and LDS, although a sharp lawyer would get them for gross negligence for not knowing you were working the system.

Not really a problem until you get a kid hurt, and the parents are looking at 100k in medical bills. They WERE your friends, but they are not anymore.

Also, without a WFR or W-EMT, you are CLEARLY grossly negligent, since these are the industry standard for taking people into the wild for technical activities.

Do you have possessions?

Tom

[JTMiller]

So this is what we do but i am not endorsing this what so ever.

1st we do file a tour permit with the BSA stating that we are going to zion national park to go hiking. This will cover us for everything besides canyons.

2. we then alos have the boys and parents sign a LDS church permission slip.

3 We have a Liability waver that releases the leaders, church ,BSA, and all adults going of any liablility if a boy is injured. We have had a laywer write it up for us so it is a leagal document. We then have the parents read it and sign it before we go on any canyoneering trips.

This way the church and the BSA will cover us for everything besides the actuall canyoneering part. So as soon as we drop out of the last rap in pine creek we are now hiking and are covered. At least this is the way i look at it and many other leaders here where i got the idea and paperwork from.

Wow. One of our main responsibilities as scout leaders is to teach the boys to live honest and ethical lives. I'm a scout leader, and agree that sometimes the BSA red tape can really become a pain in the backside, but it comes with the territory. The battle between risk managers and segments of the legal profession is making our lives more difficult. Seems to me that this type of questionable work-around is setting an example opposite to what we're responsible to teach. Also sounds like you're still personally exposed while you're in the technical parts of the canyon.

[canyonguru]

i figured i would catch some slack on this. Being that the BSA is the activity arm the the LDS church we are required to use their insurence when we do any type of activity. We are also required to have the boys parents sign a LDS permission slip. I do agree that we are still taking some risk to ourselves being as tom said any laywer, if he or she is good enough) can sue anyone for anything and win regardless of how reduculus the claim.

Even if we were to have two BSA rappel certified leaders on the trip who is to say the the boys woren't messing around and fell off the cliff. Is that my fault that they were being idiots. Or who is to say that we set the rappel up correctlly. There are millions of sanarios that could happen and we could still get sued reguardless weather we have a BSA trained person or not. I guess this is my way of justifying taking the boys out to do something special that they wouldn't be able to do if it wasn't this way. or they would have to wait 3 years for us to get trained.

It dosen't matter if you have taken every training course in the world nothing will ever replace experience. Never ever. The BSA and the church are just trying to cover their butts. I don't blame them one bit, there are too many idots out there who think they know what they are doing but don't. At least if they are BSA trained and then screw up they can atleast say that they had the training.

I can tell you about a story of a scout troop just last week that had to hike back out wild cat canyon becaues they got lost trying to do Great West. Those are the types of leaders that the training will protect the BSA when something goes wrong that is why it is so exstensive.

[Iceaxe]

You guys are so silly..... lawsuits are not about right and wrong, negligence, waivers or permission slips.... they are about money, which means you really only need to know two things.... first is it takes money to fund a successful lawsuit. Second is lawsuits are directed towards the deep pockets, poor people don't get sued.


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[ratagonia]

It dosen't matter if you have taken every training course in the world nothing will ever replace experience. Never ever.

It doesn't matter how much experience you have, there is nothing like getting trained by professionals. Never EVER!

However, without context (experience), training is not very useful. Training only works when you have a scaffold to emplace it into.

I know many people with a lot of experience, who are very poor (very dangerous) canyon leaders. And of course, have no idea that they are poor canyon leaders.

I admire that you take the kids out for AWESOME adventures. But, just so you know, you are taking on considerable liability by doing so. If your lawyer tells you otherwise, you should find another lawyer.

I highly recommend taking a WFR course and maintaining that certification. With a (good) WFR course, you will be capable of providing the best care possible should an accident occur. I don't do that for the sake of legal liability, I do it for the sake of moral liability, for only by knowing that I did all that was possible can I be assured to not be damaged (unnecessarily) by an accident injury under my care.

Tom

[airman]

Whoa ... there's a bit of information on this thread that is a bit concerning !!! Intentionally omitting information on a Tour Plan as a means of avoiding liability? Yikes!!! A Scout is trustworthy, …, obedient, …. For those watching at home, I certainly hope this doesn’t reflect the attitude and approach of LDS Scout Leaders generally, because some of what has been discussed here, in my opinion, is contrary to the teachings of the LDS church and the BSA.

I think overall the spirit of this is Scout leaders wanting to do the right thing. Special thanks to those of you who are trying to follow the rules, however frustrating it might be!

There’s a lot that could be said about some of the information on this thread. Without getting into details, please know that some of it is wrong. No one with authority from the BSA, any of the councils referenced, or the LDS church have chimed in here. The only way to know the BSA rules is to call your local council. It’s not that hard to pick up the phone and call Sean or Brandt (links containing their phone numbers can be found earlier in this thread). You might not agree with the BSA rules, or think the rules are burdensome, but representatives of the BSA Councils can speak with authority as to what the rules are. Please note that BSA rules have changed substantially this year. So don’t assume that what you were told previously is still applicable. You need to stay current with the rules.

With regard to the polices of LDS church, the very end of Section 13.6.20 of Handbook 2 (the Church Handbook of Instructions) states: "The stake president (or a bishop under his direction) refers questions about safety issues ... to the Risk Management Division or to the area office." If you want to know if you are a “trained and certified guide” pursuant to the First Presidency letter dated April 22, 2013 that is available on safety.lds.org, that is the channel I would go through. If it were me, I would be very reluctant to take the leap of logic that suggests that you can be in compliant with LDS Church safety polices while violating BSA policies.

In the event of an accident that goes to trial, the applicable policies of both the BSA and the LDS Church (for a LDS unit) will be blown up and put on the screen for the jury to read. It won’t matter what you “thought” the policies were or how creative you tried to be in getting around them. The policies will be presented and the facts of your training, what happened, and so forth will be presented to the jury in excruciating detail. The point will come when the attorney representing the injured or deceased leader and/or Scout will ask “Were you in compliance with these policies?” The implication will be that if you weren’t, you will have been negligent and/or engaged in intentional misconduct and thus personally liable for the accident. Don’t set yourself up for that. It will ruin your life, the life of your family, and the life of many others. And please don't assume that a liability waiver will excuse you from following the rules.

As I see it, this isn’t just about protecting ourselves from liability. My wife grew up in the LDS Pleasant View 3^rd Ward. In 1967, 13 scouts and leaders that ward perished in a tragic accident when a truck rolled over on the Hole-in-the-Rock Road. Heartache from that incident can be felt in that ward to this day. I want to be properly trained and follow proper rules so that I can avoid similar tragedies if at all possible.

For me, there is no greater and more rewarding outdoor activity than to take youth canyoneering. However, I am sobered by the elevated moral and legal responsibilities that are imposed on leaders who undertake these activities. Please do not take it lightly.

For those of you who are frustrated, I hope you will convert that energy into something productive like getting properly trained, or even better, being a part of developing programs in your Council to help others get properly trained.

[Mountaineer]

The only way to know the BSA rules is to call your local council. It’s not that hard to pick up the phone and call Sean or Brandt (links containing their phone numbers can be found earlier in this thread). You might not agree with the BSA rules, or think the rules are burdensome, but representatives of the BSA Councils can speak with authority as to what the rules are. Please note that BSA rules have changed substantially this year. So don’t assume that what you were told previously is still applicable. You need to stay current with the rules.

Thanks airman. I would add to this by stating: Take the BSA training. Become a BSA Lead Instructor.

I also have the updated manual, this year, on all the rules and policies. A 4" large ring binder if anyone wants to call, ask questions, or come over and look through it. For example, ropes have to carry certain certifications, log book, and/or manufacturer guarantees before they can be used. When I did my initial research, I was hard pressed to find any static rope that met those (partly due to BSA and/or Trapper Trails finalizing canyoneering standards).

You have to follow all the rules, to the best of your ability, and up to your level of training. If you do so, and an accident occurs (hopefully never), however you'll be on solid ground in the court room.

I don't know of anyone who is perfect at everything.

[Mountaineer]

Even if we were to have two BSA rappel certified leaders on the trip who is to say the the boys woren't messing around and fell off the cliff. Is that my fault that they were being idiots.

Ya, that is tough. On my last trip I had one boy who really just wanted to "go for it" even after I set the proper discipline, and sequence process prior to entering the canyon. He was excited, naturally. However, per policy, use a tether anytime you are closer to 8'.

Ground school, and rappelling/climbing practice prior also is important. If you find a boy that you are having trouble controlling, may be best to put them on a plan to improve and perhaps sign up for the next trip once they meet those goals.

Or who is to say that we set the rappel up correctlly. There are millions of sanarios that could happen and we could still get sued reguardless weather we have a BSA trained person or not.

If there is an accident, you can count on a law suit. Learning and setting up the rappels per BSA takes more time, but by doing it correctly strengthens your legal position.

I guess this is my way of justifying taking the boys out to do something special that they wouldn't be able to do if it wasn't this way. or they would have to wait 3 years for us to get trained.

It dosen't matter if you have taken every training course in the world nothing will ever replace experience. Never ever. The BSA and the church are just trying to cover their butts. I don't blame them one bit, there are too many idots out there who think they know what they are doing but don't. At least if they are BSA trained and then screw up they can atleast say that they had the training.

WFR takes a bit to get, and I recommend it. First Aid and CPR is the minimum requirement. The actual BSA training was 3 days for me, Trapper Trails.

I can tell you about a story of a scout troop just last week that had to hike back out wild cat canyon becaues they got lost trying to do Great West. Those are the types of leaders that the training will protect the BSA when something goes wrong that is why it is so exstensive.

There are leaders who have a lot of training, experience, etc., but have no clue on how to manage a group. There are others who are great with the group dynamics, but not so good at the technical part. You are golden if you can get both types on the same trip.

With a little bit of effort, you can get the credentials you need to take scouts out. It is rewarding, and I guarantee those scouts will always remember you, the rest of their lives, for what you provided.

[ratagonia]

WFR takes a bit to get, and I recommend it. First Aid and CPR is the minimum requirement. The actual BSA training was 3 days for me, Trapper Trails.

WFR is the industry standard, outside BSA.

Since CanyonGuru is outside the BSA, BSA standards do not apply to him.

I would also recommend WFR to all Scout Leaders. The step up in capability from WFA to WFR is substantial. ZAC is hosting a course in November with WMA, who produces a mighty good course.

http://www.zionadventures.com/zion-p...rst-responder/

Tom

[bbjones]

It is interesting that with all the posts in this thread and similar threads on this and other forums where my contact information can be located, my phone has yet to ring.

There is both a lot of miss information and even some correct information found is this thread.

I encourage you to contact your local council office and climbing committee for further assistance.

However, some BSA councils have programs which are teaching and requiring levels of training which have always been insufficient compared to the requirements for “INSTRUCTOR” from the BSA.

Requirements change and will continue to change.

In 2014, councils will have to have their local training programs reviewed and approved by BSA National. This is not the forum to discuss this. Not all councils will have approved training programs.

That being said ……..

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.

The Boy Scouts of America seeks adult leaders who exemplify, teach and inspire the traits in their mission statement.

I will not enumerate all the requirements, time and cost of BSA and local council climbing, rappelling and, where approved, canyoneering training programs.

Currently it states in Climb On Safely the requirements for Unit climbing and rappelling activities.

Climb On Safely can be found @:

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/430-099.pdf

A BSA Level II Instructor is one source. (Climbing Lead Instructor and Director are being phased out by the BSA as their training expires.)

There are also other organizations where QUALIFIED INSTRUCTORS can be located. An INSTRUCTOR from AMGA, NOLS, and other professional institutes are enumerated. Note the word “instructors”.

There are industry standards for the organizations listed.

The BSA Level II Instructor course is just that “An Instructor Course”. The course is not a climbing course. The course teaches and evaluates a candidates knowledge, skill, understanding and judgment of climbing, rigging, management and many other essentials to be coming an instructor.

In Climb On Safely it states, “Qualified instruction is essential to conducting a safe climbing/rappelling activity. Some people who claim to be qualified or have had some experience with climbing or rappelling may lack sufficient knowledge to safely conduct these activities.”

There are requirements for INSTRUCTORS for a simple climbing/rappelling activity at the local climbing crag.

For canyoneering an INSTRUCTOR should meet the minimum requirements for running a climbing/rappelling activity and ALSO have “specific training and skill in instructing these activities” meaning canyoneering.

My contact information can be found at the bottom of the link below.

http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/lea...s-course/32030

To become an instructor it is a process.

I can tell you the rewards are worth it.

Brandt Jones

COPE and Climbing Committee Chairman
Great Salt Lake Council
Member BSA Western Region COPE and Climbing Task Force
Western Region Area Advocate, BSA
Training Program Evaluator, BSA