Scout Training?

[moab mark]

There have been several threads about Scout Leader Training over the past few years. Instead of searching thru all of them does anyone know where Trappers and GSL stand now? I have moved into a new area and several of the Leaders are interested in getting trained. So I guess we want to jump thru the hoops so we can take the Youth Canyoneering. So what are the hoops? Can we go private(Darkhorse etc) or do we need to take the courses from GSLC? I can't seem to find anything on the GSLC site? Does anyone have the breakdown of what is necessary?

[airman]

I'm not sure about Trapper Trails. But as I understand it, professional guides that are approved by the GSLC can be used, or you can go through the climbing and canyoneering courses sponsored by the GSLC. You have to start with the climbing course. Here's the link to info on the climbing course: http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/lea...s-course/32030.

[Mountaineer]

In both councils, you must have a minimum of 2 BSA Climbing Instructors for the activity, where one must be a BSA Lead Climbing Instructor. BSA is the only one who can provide this training.

Prerequisites for the training: BSA medical, First Aid/CPR, Climb on Safely and Youth Protection trained.

Looks like another course is offered by GSLC in October: http://www.gslc-bsa.org/training/lea...s-course/32030. GSLC also has a canyoneer training program and policies.

Trapper Trails is led by Sean, and information may be found here: http://www.trappertrails.org/Trainin...cific/Climbing. Sean is an awesome person who puts a lot of volunteer time into this program, and organized and helped with my training earlier this year.

Note that Trapper Trails does not have a canyoneering program yet (unlike GSLC), but they are working to organize and put one together. So right now, under Trapper Trails, you can go canyoneering following the climbing training policies.

[moab mark]

What (time commitment etc) is involved with the GSLC Canyoneering training? Anybody have a link?

[burley]

What (time commitment etc) is involved with the GSLC Canyoneering training? Anybody have a link?

Mark, I've been through it all and the steps to be able to lead youth through canyons for GSLC are more or less as follows:

1. Knowledge of and competency in Climbing and Canyoneering
2. Basic Training on your own (First Aid, CPR, BSA Climb On, BSA Youth Protection, etc): 16 hrs?
3. Climbing Instructor Class: 16 hrs?
4. Become Climbing Instructor Level I: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
5. Become climbing Instructor Level II: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
6. Wilderness First Aid Class: 20 hrs?
7. Canyon Leader Class: 40 hrs?
8. Become Canyon Leader I: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
9. Become Canyon Leader II: Activities totaling 40 hrs?

There are other requirements thrown in besides the classes themselves in order to obtain the different levels, such as testing (written, practical) and taking youth out with supervision to be evaluated. Realistically it would take about a year before you could take youth out 'on your own', due to schedule, and then only if you're on top of things. But it all starts with taking the Climbing Instructor course.

Costs are pretty reasonable, you're mostly paying for rope usage etc. I'm thinking that total is less than $500, and that would go down if you already have First Aid, CPR etc.

It is a lot to go through, but pretty reasonable when you consider the low cost and that the BSA is the ONLY (?) youth group that allows non-professional guides to take youth out like this; they want to make sure that you (who could be an idiot or could be the safest guy on the Plateau with 20 years experience) know how to get youth through a canyon without anyone getting hurt or worse, especially if something goes wrong. One major difference between 'jumping through the hoops' and not is that if you do things per BSA guidelines you (theoretically) have their back if something were to happen and things went to court. Also, there are some pretty smart and experienced guys who teach and participate in the training so you're bound to learn something along the way.

I'd also note that if you want to personally take youth from the GSLC though a canyon this is the only way to do it 'BSA legal', or even 'LDS legal' for those that are Mormon. Of course, you could hire a professional guide with their own insurances, but that is pretty cost prohibitive for most scout groups. Fortunately the GSLC has a pretty good system set up that with some planning any group in the council can find someone already trained to take them out.

The guys that run the climbing course would be able to discuss the GSLC side with you further, or PM me.

[canyonguru]

It is actuall imposible to do a slot canyon exactly like BSA trains you too. There is no way on the first rappell in pine creek that you can have two completely different anchors and have the rigged indipendtly of eachother, cover the ropes with a fire hose to protect them from wear. Its a little rediculous what the BSA requires for a true BSA Rappel.

Im not saying that the training is not good idea, any type of training is better than not having any at all. Just my two cents.

[airman]

Thanks, Mountaineer for jumping in here. Very helpful! I just want to clarify one thing:

So right now, under Trapper Trails, you can go canyoneering following the climbing training policies.

I'm not in the Trapper Trails Council, so take this for what it's worth, but I don't think that is right. Climb On Safely says:

"For specialized climbing activities such as lead climbing, sport climbing, ice climbing, canyoneering, mountaineering, and caving, qualified instructors with specific training and skill in instructing these activities are required." (emphasis added).

Note that Trapper Trails does not have a canyoneering program yet ....

So, if specialized training is needed for canyoneering according to Climb On Safely, and Trapper Trails doesn't have a canyoneering program, I don't think you can take scouts canyoneering in the Trapper Trails Council by following the Trapper Trails council climbing-only program and still be compliant with Climb On Safely.

Needless to say, this is an area that is a bit tricky. I think the best source for information on the courses and time commitments is to call Sean (Trapper Trails) or Brandt (Great Salt Lake Council). Give them a call. They can tell you all about their respective programs. Their phone numbers are on the webpages mentioned earlier in the thread. Just so you know, these guys are unpaid volunteers.

[Mountaineer]

Yes, a bit tricky. Good point and well taken.

Have talked to Sean and the other leaders on the topic; and for Trapper Trails the climbing guidelines currently satisfy canyoneering events.

There are plans to implement a similar program to GSLC.

[Mountaineer]

It is actuall imposible to do a slot canyon exactly like BSA trains you too. There is no way on the first rappell in pine creek that you can have two completely different anchors and have the rigged indipendtly of eachother, cover the ropes with a fire hose to protect them from wear. Its a little rediculous what the BSA requires for a true BSA Rappel.

Im not saying that the training is not good idea, any type of training is better than not having any at all. Just my two cents.

Very tough, but possible in most situations. With the right equipment and planning, probably possible in any situation.

If not possible, shouldn't do that canyon...

Two anchor points are required. Independent ropes also. Everyone on a tether, belay, etc. Lots of time and care to follow policy, yes.

[moab mark]

Yes, a bit tricky. Good point and well taken.

Have talked to Sean and the other leaders on the topic; and for Trapper Trails the climbing guidelines currently satisfy canyoneering events.

There are plans to implement a similar program to GSLC.

Yes but does it satisfy the LDS Church rules on extreme adventures?

[JTMiller]

The links to the GSL Council climbing/rappelling and canyoneering policies are both included on the web page about the climbing instructor course.

Here is the link to the canyoneering policy: http://www.gslc-bsa.org/document/gsl...neering-policy

[Mountaineer]

Yes but does it satisfy the LDS Church rules on extreme adventures?

Not sure on that. Our troop is sponsored by the Lions Club. The church may have other policies you need to follow.

[moab mark]

Mark, I've been through it all and the steps to be able to lead youth through canyons for GSLC are more or less as follows:

1. Knowledge of and competency in Climbing and Canyoneering
2. Basic Training on your own (First Aid, CPR, BSA Climb On, BSA Youth Protection, etc): 16 hrs?
3. Climbing Instructor Class: 16 hrs?
4. Become Climbing Instructor Level I: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
5. Become climbing Instructor Level II: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
6. Wilderness First Aid Class: 20 hrs?
7. Canyon Leader Class: 40 hrs?
8. Become Canyon Leader I: Activities totaling 20 hrs?
9. Become Canyon Leader II: Activities totaling 40 hrs?

There are other requirements thrown in besides the classes themselves in order to obtain the different levels, such as testing (written, practical) and taking youth out with supervision to be evaluated. Realistically it would take about a year before you could take youth out 'on your own', due to schedule, and then only if you're on top of things. But it all starts with taking the Climbing Instructor course..

So about 200 hours probably spread out over several years, how many different ways can you tie a clove hitch? As Mr. Cabe states often "any monkey can rappel" or something like that. If you can't grasp the concept of taking groups Canyoneering in 4 8 to 10 hour Saturdays maybe Canyoneering is not for you. Make the group haul four times the amount of rope needed for each canyon and any problem should be able to be resolved. So if I start now my Son will be out of Scouts before we would be able to go. If money is not an object does anyone have a list of what private companies can teach the Canyoneering part?

Mark

[moab mark]

It is actuall imposible to do a slot canyon exactly like BSA trains you too. There is no way on the first rappell in pine creek that you can have two completely different anchors and have the rigged indipendtly of eachother, cover the ropes with a fire hose to protect them from wear. Its a little rediculous what the BSA requires for a true BSA Rappel.

Im not saying that the training is not good idea, any type of training is better than not having any at all. Just my two cents.

Does anyone have the breakdown of what is taught by the GSLC Canyoneering training? Do you really need two independent anchors? On a two bolt anchor is each bolt considered an independent anchor?

[Mountaineer]

On a two bolt anchor is each bolt considered an independent anchor?

You need at least two anchor points. Yes, each bolt is considered a point.

[moab mark]

What about 2 very large overweight leaders?

[Mountaineer]

Awesome that burley, moab mark, and others are pursuing (or have pursued) properly following the BSA regulations and policies. It is not easy to take the training, and follow all of the rules in climbing/canyoneering with scouts. For those that may not know, it requires a tremendous amount of time and focus to get everything lined up to properly take a troop through a canyon.
For BSA: training is a challenge while minimizing risk. It is a balance between making sure the leader understands the proper techniques in keeping the scouts safe, and also not requiring the instructor to give a ridiculous amount of time. I hope Mark, you and others silently reading along investigate with the GSLC directly everything needed and find it not too onerous. I hope it doesn't take all the time reflected above.
A couple of weekends ago I was taking some kids home when they started talking about the big high adventure trip they had just taken. It was a canyoneering trip.
"How did you get your helmets?"
"We just grabbed our bike helmets" (Against policy I knew, but I stayed quiet)
"Do you remember how you rappelled?"
"We threw the ropes down and just went down on our own." (No belay)
"Was your leader trained?"
"Oh ya, he has been doing this for several years and knows everything. He did a great job. All the other adults had never rappelled or anything before, but our leader knew it all"
I doubt he had any BSA training. If he did, he certainly didn't honor his signature on compliance.

I suspect that most scout groups go without following BSA policy. I could be wrong? If under a church group, perhaps their policy would cover a mishap. Maybe? However, it seems to be very common for troops to just go without even knowing the rules, let alone follow them.

[moab mark]

So here's how it went at church today. Hey guys it's going to take between 100 and 200 hours to be able to do Subway. They looked at me like I was kidding. They decided we will go and do some other activity. Yes many are probably not getting any training at all, but when the finish line is not attainable by the average guy........

[Mountaineer]

...Subway. They looked at me like I was kidding. They decided we will go and do some other activity.......

I'll take you.

[moab mark]

Don't you need two cert leaders?