Scout Training?

[Kuya]

So I attended the UNPC University of Scouting's Canyoneering class this weekend. And come to find out, the presenter didn't have a clue about the looming liability issues that we all care about. At the moment the UNPC does NOT really have a functioning climbing committee. However, I did talk to the Council Caving Chairperson, and she told me what has been stated in previous threads and communications. CLAS Ropes is the place to go to become a "certified" climbing instructor; thus allowing a scout leader to manage a climbing and rappelling program for their Units.

Interesting enough, it was also mentioned that BSA National doesn't have a clue about what Brandt Jones is doing with Canyoneering LOL. sounds like there is a bit of a disconnect there! who knows what is true anymore?!?!

[airman]

... I've taken "a group of friends from our neighborhood" out and have their parents sign a waiver acknowledging the inherent risks and releasing me from liability. Not sure if it's worth the paper it's written on but at least I don't worry anymore.

You should worry. In 2001, the Utah Supreme Court took away the ability of a parent to waive a child's negligence claim. The case is Hawkins v. Peart.

Ignorance is bliss.

Having BSA policy explained to you and choosing to not follow it isn't ignorance.

I understand the difficulties and frustrations that can come with endeavoring to follow BSA policies. But choosing to do otherwise (i.e. exposing minors to risks by not having the appropriate training and following appropriate standards) is selfish and unwise.

[airman]

Interesting enough, it was also mentioned that BSA National doesn't have a clue about what Brandt Jones is doing with Canyoneering LOL. sounds like there is a bit of a disconnect there! who knows what is true anymore?!?!

So that I may independently verify this information, would you kindly indicate who at BSA National indicated that they don't have a clue what Brandt Jones is doing?

[moab mark]

It's to bad that it has gotten so convoluted. I now just take a few of my 12 year old sons friends and their dad's. We use to do Zion every other year as a scout camp. Subway one day order ville another. Young men talk about it at their mission farewells. For many youth it was the highlight of their youth.

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[Exergy]

You should worry. In 2001, the Utah Supreme Court took away the ability of a parent to waive a child's negligence claim. The case is Hawkins v. Peart.

Good reference. Will update the form to include the child's signature.

Having BSA policy explained to you and choosing to not follow it isn't ignorance.

True statement. Note that ignorance was never claimed of BSA policy, just the value of the waiver.

I understand the difficulties and frustrations that can come with endeavoring to follow BSA policies. But choosing to do otherwise (i.e. exposing minors to risks by not having the appropriate training and following appropriate standards) is selfish and unwise.

Unwise?
* Perhaps an understatement
* BSA representatives don't present a united front
* BSA climbing/canyoneering policy disjointed
* Little precedence between councils
* Attended 2-day canyoneering certification event with the ambition of gaining certification; was advised at the end of the first day that the course was not as advertised and none of the 20-ish attendees would gain certification; due diligence attempted at least once
* The system has been broken for a number of years (at least one generation of scouts that I'm aware of) and time marches on; some consider it irresponsible to deny upcoming generations the life experiences provided to previous generations due to lack of sponsoring organization
* One of the unintended consequences of this broken policy is that youth are diverted to less than high-adventure activities such as "hotel camping" and video games
* Not sure that these lesser activities were envisioned by the founders of scouting
* Some feel it is their civic responsibility to provide high adventure experiences whether or not a recognized organization supports those opportunities with a documented process and structure
* Previous experience at organized scout camps has been good and bad; one in particular included rappelling into the Paris Caves in a manner inconsistent with BSA climbing policy
* Current BSA policy doesn't take into account the wide variety of knowledge, skills, abilities, experience, training, standards or personal judgement; it is unreasonable to expect that BSA policy would cover all possibilities; it is hoped that BSA policy will progress by expanding allowable definitions
* Certain individuals will exercise good judgement whether or not a structured organization recognizes their knowledge, skills, abilities
* The current climbing policy of the BSA is unfortunate and best wishes are offered to those who are attempting to make the policy friendly and safe, especially the volunteers

Selfish?
* Not neccesarily
* Taking youth to lesser adventure activities to avoid personal liability can also be considered selfish
* Insurance coverage does not change the likelihood of bad things happening
* Insurance coverage does not change the risk mitigation efforts of some individuals (+ or -)
* Life is short; one must sometimes consider and accept the risk of action with or without a legal structure for protection

[moab mark]

My experience has been if your trying this concept with an lds group, your leaders should be striking this down. When the first presidency sent out that letter (which is on bogley somewhere) it shot down canyoneering without certified training. Scouting or not. Our YW are wanting me to take them on a small route in Moab and got shot down. I just gave up and now go as stated as dad's and son's. Yes still accepting a bunch of liability. If we stopped doing things because of liability might as well take up knitting. But hey what about the needles.....

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[moab mark]

Oh and now Arches has restricted us to a few guys. So much for youth groups in the park. Can't win for trying.

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[Kuya]

So that I may independently verify this information, would you kindly indicate who at BSA National indicated that they don't have a clue what Brandt Jones is doing?

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

[airman]

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

Thanks!

[airman]

Good reference. Will update the form to include the child's signature.

Unwise?

.............

Selfish?
.............

Thank you for the very thoughtful response. You make some great points.

Please consider that obtaining the child's signature won't likely serve as a waiver of the child's claim of negligence. An attorney can help properly advise you on liability waivers and their effectiveness. Perhaps you wish to remain ignorant. I think it would be a good idea for you to reconsider, and take the time to obtain a solid understanding of the legal consequences of undertaking higher-risk activities with minors, regardless of whether it is under the auspices of an organization or not. The law does not look well upon an injured minor, especially when an adult is involved.

I have seen too many Scout groups in the canyons that were unqualified and unprepared and I tend to have a visceral reaction to Scout leaders that try and skirt the rules or ignore them. Perhaps that isn't the case with you specifically, and if it isn't, I apologize. But, as a broad generalization, I stand by my statement that Scout leaders that knowingly violate BSA policies are selfish and unwise.

I agree with your assessment of the limited resources for Scout leaders and lack of support for a canyoneering program, at least outside the GSLC and Trapper Trails. It's unfortunate and frustrating. I also heartily agree with your assessment of the need for boys to experience challenging activities in the outdoors. Where I think we differ is drawing the line between undertaking higher risk activities with with minors, and when and how it is appropriate to do so. I respect your viewpoint, even if I disagree with some of it. I also hope that others who are developing their own viewpoint will carefully consider the risks involved, obtain the proper training, use good judgment, and approach the matter with caution. There are non-technical canyons and a whole host of other challenging activities for youth to participate in that don't involve a screen or a cabin/condo.

[Sandstone Addiction]

I stand by my statement that Scout leaders that knowingly violate BSA policies are selfish and unwise..

...and hypocrites.

A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal,...Obedient,...

I'm pretty sure this not only applies to Scouts, but leaders as well.

[Spidey]

I don't have a clue who it would be. I received my information from the Council Climbing Chairperson. Her name is Debbie Spoons. Her contact info is easily found on the Council website.

Unfortunately this is yet another example of UNPC not having a clue. National is well aware of what Brandt has been doing, in fact he is now some kind of regional person over several councils. He will have to delineate all of that. Brandt also went back to national and presented his plan to them before he implemented it. UNPC is clueless, but I digress.

[Kuya]

Climbing Policy Update for the UNPC:

I recently completed a BSA Level 2 Climbing course in the UNPC. This was a 35 hour class where everything from from topping out was covered and practical rescue skills were demonstrated and tested.

I was encouraged by the class. The training received was solid and definitely prepares Unit leaders to effectively manage a simple climbing and rappelling program.

However, this class did not do any kind of training for canyoneering. When I ask the UNPC Climbing Director (Debbie Spoons as of right now) about canyoneering policy, she doesn't have a answer for me. I'm hoping to get this figured out soon.

[whansen]

Good luck. I started down that path in the GSLC. And found hours of training and recertification. In my experience it was to much work. A lot of rules and regulations to keep up on. In my opinion it just isn't worth the liability to run a activity. Maybe it could be doable if that was my only responsibility.

[Kuya]

Thanks! this whole process is nutz!

[whansen]

I was thinking if UNPC don't have a canyon policy yet. You might be good to go with just being a CL2 instructor. The GSLC doesn't have a set caving policy yet although i heard its in the works. So all I have to do is a tour permit and we go caving.

[airman]

I was thinking if UNPC don't have a canyon policy yet. You might be good to go with just being a CL2 instructor. The GSLC doesn't have a set caving policy yet although i heard its in the works. So all I have to do is a tour permit and we go caving.

Canyoneering is specifically stated as requiring specialized training in Climb On Safely. Just being a CL2 instructor isn't enough. Also, the GSLC climbing policy specifically applies to caving. It is also an area that Climb On Safely requires specialized training beyond CL2. I wouldn't assume that filing a tour plan will protect you if you do not adhere to the requirements of Climbing on Safely, the Guide to Safe Scouting, or the GSLC climbing policy.

[whansen]

Canyoneering is specifically stated as requiring specialized training in Climb On Safely. Just being a CL2 instructor isn't enough. Also, the GSLC climbing policy specifically applies to caving. It is also an area that Climb On Safely requires specialized training beyond CL2. I wouldn't assume that filing a tour plan will protect you if you do not adhere to the requirements of Climbing on Safely, the Guide to Safe Scouting, or the GSLC climbing policy.

I understand that. But if a council like UNPC does not have a policy in place that states what enough is to run a canyon activity what are they supposed to do.
And in the GSLC the climbing policy that I learned and was tested on only applies to caving if your using ropes.

[airman]

I understand that. But if a council like UNPC does not have a policy in place that states what enough is to run a canyon activity what are they supposed to do.

You can't run the activity as a BSA Climbing Instructor in that council. I think that is the source of the frustration expressed elsewhere in this thread. Climb on Safely requires specialized training for canyoneering, caving, etc. If your council doesn't have approved specialized training from BSA National for these activities, they you can't undertake the activity merely as a BSA Climbing Instructor. Absence of a council policy, or participating in a council that doesn't comply with BSA National policies doesn't create an opportunity to violate Climb on Safely or the Guide to Safe Scouting. It just means you'll probably sink on the same ship as your council if an accident occurs.

And in the GSLC the climbing policy that I learned and was tested on only applies to caving if your using ropes.

I think you are generally correct on that. But you still have to follow other BSA polices, including the Guide to Safe Scouting, which references the BSA Caving Policy.

[whansen]

You can't run the activity as a BSA Climbing Instructor in that council. I think that is the source of the frustration expressed elsewhere in this thread. Climb on Safely requires specialized training for canyoneering, caving, etc. If your council doesn't have approved specialized training from BSA National for these activities, they you can't undertake the activity merely as a BSA Climbing Instructor. Absence of a council policy, or participating in a council that doesn't comply with BSA National policies doesn't create an opportunity to violate Climb on Safely or the Guide to Safe Scouting. It just means you'll probably sink on the same ship as your council if an accident occurs.



I think you are generally correct on that. But you still have to follow other BSA polices, including the Guide to Safe Scouting, which references the BSA Caving Policy.

Which takes me back to my origianl comment to Kuya. "Good Luck"


Yes, I use the Guide to Safe Scouting and BSA Caving Policy with every caving trip we go on. These policys are very simple. And the best thing is the Caving Policy requires you to have caving experience but not days of BSA training and testing. But some day soon I'm sure it will.