Scout Training?

[Mac]

http://www.utahscouts.org/event/1677630

UNPC 32 hours for level 1 and 2?

Wow!!!!!!!

And this is approved??????????????

Why do I find it hard to believe that BSA would give UNPC approval to NOT teach the prescribed courses? The program evaluation process seems to be spelled out clearly in the BSA web page. I wonder how UNPC is able to get their program approved without teaching what BSA has developed.

Has anyone else on this forum read the BSA courses?

They are laid out quit well. They appear to be very comprehensive. They seem to be approaching what could be described as a worldwide standard for someone who wants to take the liability for someone else’s life.

I would think that if the Boy Scouts were to allow a council to teach a lower standard than what is spelled out in their courses, and something went wrong and a boy was hurt, there could be some real liability issues.

But I am not an attorney.

Mac

[Kuya]

You should contact Debbie Spoons. She is the UNPC climbing director. I would love to have some others voice their oppinion. The UNPC needs a lot of help.

[geckobiker]

It would be nice if they would stop being self righteous and take the help that has been offered multiple times. Perhaps they should really read all the religious stuff they post and start living it.


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[owenfw]

A small update to this conversation:

In a conversation with Debbie Spoons of UNPC yesterday, she stated very clearly that the guidelines in Climb on Safely apply only to unit activities, not council activities, which they have different policies for. Climb on Safely does say this (subtitle "Requirements for Unit Climbing and Rappelling"), but I think a lot of people haven't understood the implications of this, at least as interpreted now by UNPC. The main upshot for me personally is that while a unit may consider me a "qualified instructor" because I'm an AMGA SPI (listed as acceptable training in Climb on Safely), the council does not. They will not refer me to units as a qualified instructor, allow me to network with them through their closed FB group, allow me to participate in council events as a climbing instructor, assist with their training, or become trained by them other than by attending the full course they offer to everyone, including non-climbers. The only training they accept is their own. The rationale as I understand it is that 1) they can't trust training received anywhere else and 2) they and the BSA have special requirements (read paperwork) that must be followed and can't be explained other than through their 32 hour course. The BSA does provide on their website for climbing instructors certified elsewhere to be treated as instructors renewing their BSA cert, but UNPC does not allow this option. So you could be a pinned IFMGA Mountain Guide and still have to sit through all 32 hours before UNPC will touch you.

Of course I have some mixed feelings about this, but policy is policy. I do worry that this creates the potential for qualified instructors following the publicly available guidelines for unit activities to be hung out to dry if an insurance situation ever comes up. Theoretically following the public guidelines should protect you, but I can only imagine what a lawyer could do with the mismatch in certifications accepted at the unit and council levels.

But the main takeaway for me from my conversation with Debbie (who, by the way, was very patient with me since this was so hard for me to wrap my head around) was that any assumptions anyone has been making about what training might be acceptable in UNPC for climbing or rappelling mean nothing unless directly confirmed by UNPC. So unless you have your own insurance or are sure that e.g. the LDS Church will have your back if the BSA doesn't, be very, very careful.

[owenfw]

Very careful as in probably don't take scouts climbing or in a canyon at all.

[geckobiker]

Try being trained by BSA National Camp School, been on staff at BSA National Camp School, and a Climbing Section Lead for National Camp School, and they wont let you into their club. I am a current Level II/Director.

[Kuya]

A small update to this conversation:

In a conversation with Debbie Spoons of UNPC yesterday, she stated very clearly that the guidelines in Climb on Safely apply only to unit activities, not council activities, which they have different policies for. Climb on Safely does say this (subtitle "Requirements for Unit Climbing and Rappelling"), but I think a lot of people haven't understood the implications of this, at least as interpreted now by UNPC. The main upshot for me personally is that while a unit may consider me a "qualified instructor" because I'm an AMGA SPI (listed as acceptable training in Climb on Safely), the council does not. They will not refer me to units as a qualified instructor, allow me to network with them through their closed FB group, allow me to participate in council events as a climbing instructor, assist with their training, or become trained by them other than by attending the full course they offer to everyone, including non-climbers. The only training they accept is their own. The rationale as I understand it is that 1) they can't trust training received anywhere else and 2) they and the BSA have special requirements (read paperwork) that must be followed and can't be explained other than through their 32 hour course. The BSA does provide on their website for climbing instructors certified elsewhere to be treated as instructors renewing their BSA cert, but UNPC does not allow this option. So you could be a pinned IFMGA Mountain Guide and still have to sit through all 32 hours before UNPC will touch you.

Of course I have some mixed feelings about this, but policy is policy. I do worry that this creates the potential for qualified instructors following the publicly available guidelines for unit activities to be hung out to dry if an insurance situation ever comes up. Theoretically following the public guidelines should protect you, but I can only imagine what a lawyer could do with the mismatch in certifications accepted at the unit and council levels.

But the main takeaway for me from my conversation with Debbie (who, by the way, was very patient with me since this was so hard for me to wrap my head around) was that any assumptions anyone has been making about what training might be acceptable in UNPC for climbing or rappelling mean nothing unless directly confirmed by UNPC. So unless you have your own insurance or are sure that e.g. the LDS Church will have your back if the BSA doesn't, be very, very careful.

The only good thing about Debbie course is that she does a couple days of hands on anchor building and rescue work. Otherwise all the content is the same as the BSA Climb on safely stuff. I think it is super silly that the UNPC is no longer recognizing other organizations.

Go ahead and ask her about the canyoneering policy! haha

[kiwi_outdoors]

" the guidelines in Climb on Safely apply only to unit activities, not council activities, which they have different policies for"

is even more stupid than some of the things my bureaucracy does.

BTW - I used to be a Asst SM and a Climbing trip leader (top roping only), locally trained.

[owenfw]

" the guidelines in Climb on Safely apply only to unit activities, not council activities, which they have different policies for"

is even more stupid than some of the things my bureaucracy does.

BTW - I used to be a Asst SM and a Climbing trip leader (top roping only), locally trained.

Well, and there is the Balkanization aspect--instead of a consistent BSA climbing training standard, now (at least as interpreted by UNPC), no locally administered training travels, so any volunteer moving from one council to another is back at square one. And one council can't call on resources from another council, even if the guy lives across the street, if they need extra hands. I've never seen a nonprofit organization so intent on alienating volunteers as LDS BSA. This climbing thing is just the tip of that iceberg, small potatoes compared to the damage done by the "calling" system of recruiting adult scout leaders. Our local scout motto could be "Be untrained and unmotivated."