View Poll Results: Should HitRR be paved?

Voters
49. You may not vote on this poll
  • HitRR should be paved

    21 42.86%
  • HitRR should NOT be paved

    22 44.90%
  • I'm not sure if HitRR should be paved.

    6 12.24%
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Thread: American Canyoneers - Hole in the Rock Road

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post
    I will look for useful information elsewhere.
    Penny
    Not trying to bust your chops or anything like that, Penny...but if/when you get this "useful" information, could you please post it up here for the benefit of all us uninformed masses?

    I think the thread asked a pretty simple question. Quite frankly, at this point I would much rather see pictures of someone standing next to their car on that road, frown on their face, with a blown up tire. Or perhaps a car so covered in dust you can't tell what color it is or stories of rescues (I have a few) of folks that got in over their heads just driving down there. I say pave the thing...I'll have a grin from ear to ear as I'm flying down to 40 mile, latte in my hand.

    That would be much more interesting that reading through some engineers report on how to construct a culvert. When serious people start talking seriously about doing something radical down there, then it's time to "get educated"...until then it's all fun and games...for some, that is.
    The end of the world for some...
    The foundation of paradise for others.

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  4. #82
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    You will find a tremendous amount of useful information on Bogley.... but it's up to you to sort it out and come to an educated personal conclusion.

    If you are looking for someone to hold your hand and guide you down the yellow brick road to a predetermined destination then you are correct, Bogley is probably the wrong place.

    Attachment 67604
    Before the blanket gets thrown over all of us by your statement Penny...remember that no speaks for all of us. Like Sombeech said, we aren't one voice and have many opinions often which clash...which is great. Everyone should feel very free and unrestrained with their opinions. Often through diversity we learn a lot. If we all thought the same, like Shane's analogy with fishing in the same small pond, then we would be sheep.

    I love it when Byron, Shane, Tom, Scott P, and others clash. Tom doesn't have all the answers and nor does Shane.

    But you and the folks who don't post here but always view - would be very wise to listen to ALL of the opinions.

    /2 pennies
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  6. #83
    I find that when everybody agrees all the time and pats each other on the back, less is learned.

    Strength in Diversity.

    Bogley is THE most diverse Canyoneering community anywhere on the internet. For those looking to join a community where all ideals are the same, this would not quite fit their agenda but we would still love to hear from them.

    Again, Strength in Diversity.

    If the thread isn't going your way, please post more.

  7. Likes Byron liked this post
  8. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    If you are looking for someone to hold your hand and guide you down the yellow brick road to a predetermined destination then you are correct, Bogley is probably the wrong place.
    Yikes! Translated into photo form:

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  9. #85
    Each generation (no, each decade of new eyes) gets to take a new look at land use planning on the Colorado Plateau? Interesting that some that are so framiliar with these corridors and have travelled them for years claim neutrality as to an opinion - until more fcts of course are tendered?

    The BLM and federal land managers have for decades been in opposition to paving. Upgrading sections, more gravel, widening - this has all occurred. But the fabric of the place changes dramatically if and when paved, and after that will the pressure be on to pave side roads -40 mile ridge to Coyote Gulch?

    In the short run, the financial economic benefit goes to engineers, contractors, sub-contractors, asphalt company, trucking companies. Usually political contributions grease the contracts. Often the demand for the service (paving) is inflated and costs understated. Garfied County with it's tax base could not afford such an operation, and the annual upkeep, as compared to what it is now, would likely enhance. Parties would look to the state and federal government for funding; and yet compared to the financial needs of repairing bridges across America and the upkeep of federal highways, the paving of the HRR would likely be a very low priority.

    American Canyoneers vote - no thanks to a paved road? That organization like most has directors and officers. Members defer to such for decision making. If a collective voice of the membership though offers an alternative or contrary view, the board would likely listen and potentially modify. At least I hope they would.

    Any of you ever see the Burr Trail back in the days when it was a dusty, bumpty rutted dirt road? The National Park Service stood steadfast in saying NO to paving, and yet movers and shakers in Garfield County wanted to pave the road feeling it would offer untold economic benefit. The chip and seal, widening, and partial paving. The fiancial Holy Grail, it turned out, NOT to be.

    Pave the road to 40 mile ridge for example, and Devils Garden, Dry Gulch- Peekabo, Spooky - and probably Coyote Gulch would turn into a spring and fall highway and canyon "traffic jam". So much for solitude and quiet in the desert. ( I know some of those sections have been busy for decades) There are a constellatoin of users on that road with a varying degree of interests. Most I think, even the California Cowboys would ask to keep the traffic down, and keep the road mostly as is. Canyoneers though that only care about access, might surmise that other ecological, economic and social concerns should take a subordinate look? That range or spectrum - wild or semi-wild on one side and industrial and developed on the other - at least in the front country. Folk's range and depth of concern for the desert is on display.

  10. #86
    ^ Interesting observations, @reflection. ^ General, but good. I always enjoy it when you stop by.

    Can't quite tell from your post... if it were up to you, what would you do? And why?
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  11. #87
    Thanks for the thoughts and history, reflection.

    As an AC member, I was surprised when I read the initial HITRR announcement. Surprised to the point that I contacted one of the AC directors to provide feedback, since the statement as titled and written did not seem to be appropriate for the AC (in this member's opinion, at any rate). Later I read the updated AC statement, yet I still felt like some things were unclear, particularly regarding the motivation behind the call for action. Ram and Rich Rudow posted some additional information in a CC thread that I found of interest and perhaps others will too - a few quotes cross-posted:

    Ram: "Far from it being a pave or not pave issue, it was seen as an access issue. Right now there are backpackers, canyoneers, LDS historical tourists and the Devils Garden and/or Spooky Peek-a-boo family crowd down there. We have our way now. We really do. Self serve permit sign ins at trail heads. It will never get any better than that access wise. Pave it and I believe that will go away fast. REAL fast. If they build it, they will come and then we will have to wait in lines of some kind or be limited in when and where we can go. Isn't it worth a bumpy ride to avoid that? Sometimes less is more."

    Rich Rudow: "Garfield County is asking the Fed's for $15 million to improve the 16 miles of road inside Garfield County, but they are on the record with aspirations to pave the whole thing for tourism."

    -john

  12. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by outsider View Post
    Ram: "Far from it being a pave or not pave issue, it was seen as an access issue. Right now there are backpackers, canyoneers, LDS historical tourists and the Devils Garden and/or Spooky Peek-a-boo family crowd down there. We have our way now. We really do. Self serve permit sign ins at trail heads. It will never get any better than that access wise. Pave it and I believe that will go away fast. REAL fast. If they build it, they will come and then we will have to wait in lines of some kind or be limited in when and where we can go. Isn't it worth a bumpy ride to avoid that? Sometimes less is more."
    I think visions of Zion and Arches are dancing in Ram's head. (friendly teasing )

    HITRR is a MUCH different setup than either of those parks. As mentioned before 'the good stuff' is a long way from the proposed pavement. However, if the Egypt Road (and other branches from HITTR) were to be paved, then maybe there would be lines, and maybe canyoneers would be limited.

    That is the shade of grey where I'd begin to protest.
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  13. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post

    .... if the Egypt Road (and other branches from HITTR) were to be paved, ...
    This is what I was thinking. First HITR, then Egypt.

  14. #90
    Bogley BigShot oldno7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deagol View Post
    This is what I was thinking. First HITR, then Egypt.
    You haven't heard of the proposed bridge across the Escalante, through Steven's Arch?

    I was more curious when I heard of the tunnel through waterpocket.

    The new "Grandest of all Loops" is going to be great--

    Down HITR,across the Escalante,through Stevens,Under Waterpocket,across Halls Narrows(bridge)to Bullfrog.

    Then dinner and back across the Burr trail to Boulder, Escalante and Wa-La--"Grandest of all Loops" it's going to be awesome!!!
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  15. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by deagol View Post
    This is what I was thinking. First HITR, then Egypt.
    Even though they are connected, the use of the two roads is very different, so their maintenance is very different.

    Based on Scott P's very rough cost analysis, there is a fairly strong argument to pave HITRR.

    However, the Egypt road is probably very cheap to maintain. I only recall one section that is graded (the short switchback-ish turn). Unless the land managers think thousands of people will flock to the Egypts if it's paved, then there isn't much of a cost-to-benefit argument.

    My crystal ball says the Egypt road will never be paved. YMMV.
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  16. #92
    Anyone here read "The Monkey Wrench Gang"?


    There are those that believe paving Highway 95 between Hanksville and Blanding was the devil's work.


    And many think I-70 should never have been paved through the center of the San Rafael Swell.


  17. #93
    For giggles....
    Attached Images Attached Images

  18. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by reflection View Post
    American Canyoneers vote - no thanks to a paved road? That organization like most has directors and officers. Members defer to such for decision making. If a collective voice of the membership though offers an alternative or contrary view, the board would likely listen and potentially modify. At least I hope they would.
    A majority of the positions on the board are open this election. Make sure to vote for the candidates who you feel will listen and represent you (and the majority of canyoneers) best:

    Voting insturctions here: https://www.facebook.com/AmericanCanyoneers
    http://www.americancanyoneers.org/bo...013-elections/

    It's just $5 to become a member and vote: http://www.americancanyoneers.org/join-now/

  19. #95
    Thought on candidates....

    From a Bogley prospective I like the idea of selecting candidates that at least occasionally grace us with their presents.... seriously, if you are not tough enough to hang out on Bogley occasionally you are probably not tough enough to represent us with the local land managers. It's also not to know our voice is being heard.

    Oh... and anyone supporting AC becoming SUWA Lite gets voted out immediately.... I'm sick of that horse shit....



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