American Canyoneers - Hole in the Rock Road

[hank moon]

Can you also post a link showing where the organization(as a whole) voted on this issue.

Would be interesting to see the total number of votes and what percentages agree/dis agree with AC's newly adopted position in HITR road.

Of course if these figures aren't available to it's membership(transparency) then it would be safe to say that the agenda of a few is making decisions for the many.

Ehhh...I'm kind of embarrassed to say that I haven't even read the AC's inner-workings paperwork stuff, so I don't know how they arrive at decisions. For my part, I joined up (semi-reluctantly) out of the belief that an access org was needed, and faith that the community stood a good chance of getting it right this time. Time will tell whether that faith was well-placed (I still believe it is). Any new org is gonna make some mistakes and perhaps this is one, I don't know...I honestly don't have all the facts about this paving thing in front of me. I think it's right to challenge what the AC are doing and help direct toward constructive action.

Carry on with the HOTR poll and discussion, please! Some interesting insight - esp. from the actual engineers here - about this issue that I had not heard (my involvement with pavement engineering being more or less limited to groaning whenever I have to slow down in a work zone). :)

[Brian in SLC]

Yeah, the AC statements on conservation are easily seen on their website:

"Conservation is at the heart of the American Canyoneers

[Brian in SLC]

Can you also post a link showing where the organization(as a whole) voted on this issue.
Would be interesting to see the total number of votes and what percentages agree/dis agree with AC's newly adopted position in HITR road.
Of course if these figures aren't available to it's membership(transparency) then it would be safe to say that the agenda of a few is making decisions for the many.

I dunno how important that info would be, really. You can scroll through the list of BOD folks, look at their bios, and, kinda figure who leans which way. I think the call to action was appropriate. Regardless of one or a few persons individual agendas, the paving deal could be a big impact to canyoneering in GSENM.

Their initial announcement was:

"Let Your Voice Be Heard!
Participate in the GSENM Recreation Experience Baseline Study
Tell the BLM that paving the HITRR is WRONG!"

But, I think if you scroll through the language, you'll see that its a call for participation, and, to slow the paving process down so voices can be heard, regardless of the individual opinions.

http://www.americancanyoneers.org/gs...e-study-hitrr/

Maybe someone's paying attention to this thread?

http://www.americancanyoneers.org/hitrr/

Canyoneering is a big tent. Maybe the fringes fit into the American Canyoneers and their mission, but, I suspect some won't.

Bolt Neon canyon's final drop! Actually, just use the bolts already there.

Ha ha. There, I said it. Whew, I feel better. Will the BOD of the AC ever get behind that? Nah. I'm ok with that. Its a minor deal. I'll put up with the 50 feet of webbing, the rope grooves, the rock stacks, the buried dead men.

I don't think we'd even be having this dialog (and the paving the HITR road wouldn't be on my radar) if it weren't for the American Canyoneers. So...hooray.

[deagol]

from AC website:

American Canyoneers’ Board of Directors has heard from some members regarding our recent post encouraging members to participate in the BLM sponsored Hole in the Rock Road (HITRR) focus groups. While most comments were highly positive and supportive of the post, some questioned our call to action regarding paving HITRR. The American Canyoneers Board of Directors recognizes and respects its membership’s need for effective communication and accordingly, we would like to clarify the intent of our post. In March of this year, off-the-record comments made by Garfield County officials about paving HITRR were first brought to our attention. Earlier this month however, county officials publicly declared their right – and intention – to pave HITRR. Recognizing that the county might take action to pave the road prior to any dialogue or input from the canyoneering community and other outdoor recreational groups, AC made a strong and immediate call to action. Our request to the community to weigh in with their opinion and to participate in the BLM’s baseline study was intended to provide that missing dialogue and most importantly, to put the brakes on any momentum the county had already built to start paving. This was the intent of our post – to tell the county to stop any plans currently underway to pave the road.
We want to be part of the discussion. We refuse to sit back and let Garfield County blithely pave HITRR without regard to other voices. We refuse to allow the county to pave yet another road without dialogue or research, or allow them to ignore yet another agreement not to pave and then just go ahead and do it – as they did with the Burr Trail. We have learned from Garfield County history – and we are determined to not let the county repeat it.
Our call to action was aggressive and, we admit, not especially elegant in wording or tone. We did not mean to offend the sensibility of any readers and, if we did, we hope you will understand and appreciate the urgency and importance of our mission.
Respectfully,
The American Canyoneers Board of Directors

[ratagonia]

Really? (honestly surprised, not mocking) Very interesting! Huh... my opinion was based mostly on assumptions. If the above is true, then of course it should be paved.

Using my best estimate from a 2 minute Google search, I figure 55 miles of 2 lane road would cost $16.5M ($300,000 per mile). Does this sound reasonable Scott? How much would it cost to grade the road once? How often is this done on HITTR? 4 times a year? More?

Thanks for the educated responses Ice and Scott! (still have not submitted my vote)

Garfield County section only, to the Egypt Road - 16.5 miles. The rest is in Kane County, who could then get interested in paving it further, though if the interest is in promoting tourism, Kane County has no interest there since the traffic goes through Escalante, Garfield County. Kane County already does the absolute minimum to maintain their portion of the road, despite being paid by the feds for doing so.

I see that most people here think that money from the Feds is FREE. It is not.

Don't underestimate the motives of Garfield County Commissioners to Frack with the feds.

Garfield County does not hold TITLE to the Hole in the Rock Road. They hold a right of way. Changing the nature of the road requires permission from the Title Holder, which is the BLM. The BLM in their plan for the Monument plans on keeping the Hole in the Rock Road as it is.

This is just the usual political shenanigans from Utah politicians, intent on mis-interpreting the supremacy clause. Your Utah tax dollars at work, supporting right wing attorneys with whacko interpretations of the law. This was already litigated in the case of the Burr Trail, so at least it will not be a BIG waste of our Utah Tax Dollars.



Tom

[Iceaxe]

My two cents...


How is American Canyoneer taking a stand on such a controversial and emotionally charged issue going to improve access or help the organization?


The American Canyoneer board of directors has taken a firm stand to the far left. Does this represent the view of the membership as a whole? The poll on Bogley says no, or at the very least the poll shows the membership is highly divided or uncertain. And for the record I would be just as outraged if American Canyoneer had of taken a firm stance to the far right. Getting involved in this type of issue will do far more damage to American Canyoneer than it will ever do good.


There are already at least a half-dozen other organizations people can join to support or oppose paving of HitRR. Wouldn't it be better for American Canyoneers to stay out of the politic turmoil and perhaps just report the facts and encourage their membership to make their position known?


I joined American Canyoneer with the hope of improving access to canyons and establishing a better interface with land managers. Joining the HitRR controversy accomplishes none of those goals. In fact, it could put the organization at odds with at least one land manager (Garfield County).


If American Canyoneer intends to become SUWA Lite I plan to burn my membership card... or to be more accurate... I would burn it if I had of been issued an actual membership card.

[Iceaxe]

I see that most people here think that money from the Feds is FREE. It is not.

Well... not exactly... maybe... kinda... yes and no..... but I give Tom credit for a very nice spin and review of the problem through his SUWA colored glasses....


The problem as I see it with the current system is if you don't take the money it will be spent elsewhere. So the prevailing wisdom is its better to take the money and have it spent in your state, county, or town than to not take the money and have it spent 3000 miles away on a project you will never use.


And finally.... the money actually is free to the federal government as they are the ones that print the money. If the Feds need more money they simply print more money. Yes, I understand the big picture of just printing more money, but in reality that is exactly what they do....

[deagol]

FWIW: I (as a non-member) don't see their (AC's) stance as being "far left" at all since they want to leave the road the way it is. Far left would be something different, like... making a change from the current situation to maybe banning vehicles from the road entirely.

[Slot Machine]

Garfield County section only, to the Egypt Road - 16.5 miles. The rest is in Kane County, who could then get interested in paving it further, though if the interest is in promoting tourism, Kane County has no interest there since the traffic goes through Escalante, Garfield County. Kane County already does the absolute minimum to maintain their portion of the road, despite being paid by the feds for doing so.

Interesting. Thanks for the input.

I see that most people here think that money from the Feds is FREE. It is not.

WEAK! It's clear from the quote you used, that I'm comparing the cost of option A to option B.

The BLM in their plan for the Monument plans on keeping the Hole in the Rock Road as it is.

So why are we even having this conversation, if this is the case?

[Slot Machine]

I do want to point out this is not the only park with a very long dead end road into the heart of it. In Alaska, in Denali National Park and Preserve, private vehicles are permitted only in the first 15 miles of the Park Road. However the road extends another 74 miles beyond that to Kantishna.

I am suggesting that if congestion did become an issue, National Parks tend to respond by restricting private vehicles ( examples include Yosemite, Zion, and Denali). I am not saying that the road would or wouldn't be paved. I also have no idea if the area is being considered for further preservation as a National Park. What I am suggesting is that paving the road will put additional pressures on the area and potentially create unforseen consequences that may impact our ability to access the area as we currently do with minimal restrictions. Those pressures are inevitable but paving the road will hasten these consequences in my opinion.

Respectfully, comparing Escalante to the other National Parks is an apples vs oranges comparison. (The Burr Trail comparison is apples vs apples though) I've been to all of the aformentioned parks, even Denali, and the views from the road are magnificent compared to anything you can see from HITRR. The appeal to the average tourist is HUGE in those national parks, because few calories have to be burned in order to see great things. Along HITTR one must work quite hard to see anything good, and that is rate limiting factor that prevents (and will prevent) the overcrowding/congestion issue that happens at the other big parks.

I've driven several different vehilces down HITTR over the past 15 years, and never been deterred by the fact that it wasn't paved. Does anyone have an example of someone that was freaked out by this road, and cut their adventure short?

[deagol]

.... Does anyone have an example of someone that was freaked out by this road, and cut their adventure short?

Actually, I am one who did cut our adventure short, but not because of the vehicle. It was because we were pulling a trailer and the washboards would have killed it after all those miles. My original (and ignorant) plan was to pull the trailer to Dance Hall Rock and set up a base camp. When I got there, we were able to make it a few miles down the road, but with the washboards, there is no way we would have attempted to go much further.

Since then, I've only been down the road in a SUV (SUV that towed the trailer) and a larger pickup truck, not a regular passenger car, so have never had a problem. I've done canyons with some people who were in Subarus (who drove in seperate vehicle) and who were way sketched out by the Egypt road. I have casually overheard a few people who said they wouldn't take their car down that road. I guess it all comes down with how comfortable you are driving your car on that road and if you have a "regular" car, how much you are afraid of messing it up...

My guess it that people who are not as famiar with this region will more likely stay away from that road. I also think the pictures in brochures and on the web draw some people into that area even though you can't see the scenery from the road. People who have done even a little bit of "home work" know that there is something to see down there.

[Brian in SLC]

My bet is most tourists (and, I'm a tourist too), who visit the area to see some aspect of the monument will probably either have their passenger car, or, a rental car. In either case, my bet is a large portion of those folks aren't going to be psyched to drive down that dirt road.

And...that's ok. But, I can hear them..."how come we have a national monument that we can't even drive into to see." Yeah, forest for the trees, I know.

Local more roadside stuff would be crazy packed with folks. Not sure that isn't ok, but, popularity of Peekaboo, etc, will be much greater. Folks car camping out of, ahem, their cars, will increase.

Since its kind of out of the way for most folks on the Utah or American Desert tourist thing, I dunno how much more traffic it'll really bring. I don't think there's a risk of Zion losing its 2 million tourists a year. But, even a small percentage of those folks? That's a big increase.

[Scott P]

Since its kind of out of the way for most folks on the Utah or American Desert tourist thing, I dunno how much more traffic it'll really bring. I don't think there's a risk of Zion losing its 2 million tourists a year. But, even a small percentage of those folks? That's a big increase.

I agree with Brian on the above.

Also, paving the road will probably only increase traffic on the paved portion of the road, which could increase by a fair amount. Places like Zebra slot and Devils Garden will see an increase in usage, but I doubt it will have that much of an impact for areas far to the south (you still would have to drive 3/4 of the road without pavement).

From a vehicle access standpoint, the region accessed by the HITRR is actually less accessible than it was 20 years ago. It used to be that the roads all the way down to Hole in the Rock, to Egypt, Early Weed Bench, etc. were really good gravel roads you could take an average sedan on. Yet, it was much less popular (places like Coyote Gulch have been popular for a long time, and few other select sites were as well).

For better or worse, the biggest culprit behind the increased visitation has been guidebooks and websites. 20 years ago almost no one would visit places like the Golden Cathedral of Neon Canyon even though the road to the trailhead was much better. Now the place is very popular. I've played a part in some places becoming popular as well.

If it does get more popular and if the road is paved, the paved road will hardly be the only reason for increased usage.

Since it has been pointed out that it is only ~1/4 of the road that would be paved, I definitely think it would be more environmentally friendly to pave it because of the heavy traffic that part of the road sees. Dust clouds, mag chloride, gravel, and lack of erosion control on heavy traffic roads = not great for the environment. To me it seems easier to clean up a roadside campsite than a polluted waterway.

Normally, when it comes to environmental issues I would side with the likes of ratagonia at least 95% (and probably more) of the time, but from a road engineering/environmental standpoint, I don't know if keeping it gravel really would be the right thing to do. Pros and cons for sure.

[hank moon]

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanCanyoneers

[COLOR=#333333][FONT=lucida grande]HOLE IN THE ROCK ROAD POSITION STATEMENT

[deagol]

A complex issue for sure. I have spent a little time in the US & British Virgin Islands and they always said that paving the roads would HELP the coral reefs by decreasing sedimentation due to run-off from gravel roads. Could be the same thing here...

Another thing occurred to me: paving the road could lead to more people car-camping along it (assuming more people would not be afraid of driving it) and not using portable toilet systems. I know this sort of gets into other issues, but it's more than just day access. Camping if not done right leaves a lot of other impacts around and people using the back-country as their bathroom is something I have seen a huge increase in since the early 90's with the popularization of camping areas around Moab and elsewhere. I would bet money (if I had any) that paved road=more people= more camping= more "back-country sanitation" issues.

[oldno7]

If the AC's articles of organization, clearly state that the BOD may act without a majority of members input--then AC's did the right thing.

I believe I read that their membership was 300. If that is the case then the BOD is speaking for the 300 without said members input.

If those are the rules(AO) then play by them or join a new club.

If these are not the clearly defined rules set forth in the AO--the BOD would seem to have overstepped.

Keep in mind, I am not a member. My views are from the outside looking in.

[Byron]

I started hiking down that road back in the late 80s...and like Scott said, the roads where in far better shape. Probably because they were still running cows down the canyons then and the cowboys may have had some political pull.

I could care less about all this debate regarding the "masses" that will ruin the place. Quite frankly, the river around Fence/Neon and Coyote Gulch are toilets already. It was nice to visit when it was a bit more wild, but that was long ago and now Coyote, in particular, is just a place to pass through. I've got a trip report about it. People are going to keep coming, there's no stopping it. I remember when everything changed...it was around the mid nineties. All of a sudden, BOOM...tons of people started hiking the easy stuff close to the road. I recall thinking it was because REI started to become popular, there was a sea change in gear in the early nineties as well...all that heavy, clunky stuff became obsolete. You used to be able to drive into Calf Creek at anytime during the season and get a campsite, even if you pulled in there after dark.

Sure...Neon, Choprock and the others up there are still good for hit and runs, but my selfish interest are concerned only about the backcountry...and VERY FEW venture more than 2 nights away from the car. I'm not worried about the boonies so much, so having a nice, smooth road to get there, and get out after an epic backpack sounds just fine to me. Besides, I really hate getting my truck all dusty.

[tjdowling]

Is this why the only AC service projects I've seen happen since they were created have been in the Grand Canyon, and no where else? Is the GC the only place worthy of a service project?

For the record...

http://www.bogley.com/forum/showthre...le-Cleanup-Day


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[hank moon]

People are going to keep coming, there's no stopping it.

death's inevitable, but what's the rush?

[ratagonia]

If the AC's articles of organization, clearly state that the BOD may act without a majority of members input--then AC did the right thing.

That is what a Board of Directors does. Good definition.

Tom