American Canyoneers - Hole in the Rock Road

[Sombeech]

Maybe a good starting point is showing some similar dirt roads that were paved, increase of traffic and environmental damage that occurred afterwards.

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[Scott P]

1. Cattle ranchers - paving it will doubtfully change their use of the road. You wouldn't make extra laps to/from work if the road was nicer, would you?

Cattle grazing has actually been phased out in most areas accessed by the HITRR road. They are still in some areas, but mostly on the east side of the Escalante (places like Deer Creek, The Gulch, and Horse Canyon are very heavily grazed).

Maybe a good starting point is showing some similar dirt roads that were paved, increase of traffic and environmental damage that occurred afterwards.

The Burr Trail on the East Side of the Escalante Canyon would be a good place to compare. It's in the same region.

Undoubtedly use has increased and several campsites have become worn. I don't know if it's any worse than the west side of the Escalante.

Use would almost surely increase if the HITRR were paved. On the other hand, in many ways a paved road is more environmentally friendly. In fact over here in Colorado, it was the Sierra Club that put the pressure onto paving the Pikes Peak Road:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19016252

Paving completed on Pike's Peak road, 13 years after Sierra Club suit

Sometimes a job can seem as formidable as a mountain.

And when the job is a mountain, how tough does it seem to pave a road through a landscape of wind and snow to the 14,110-foot summit?

"It was almost insurmountable," said Jack Glavan, manager of the Pikes Peak Highway.

On Friday — 13 years after the Sierra Club sued the city to force it to happen and a decade after the work began — highway crews finished paving the final stretch, not with celebration but the same way they did for the rest: amid hard work, noise, heat and some lucky weather.

Said Glavan: "Taking it a little at a time, a mile at a time, it's hard to believe it's done."

The first 6 miles was paved in the 1950s. Paving the rest took longer than building the carriage road to the summit in the 1880s or the automobile road in the 1910s.

"It would not have happened in our lifetime if it were not for (the lawsuit)," said Jim Lockhart, conservation chair of the Pikes Peak chapter of the Sierra Club.

The group sued in 1998, claiming that 1.5 million tons of gravel dumped on the highway since 1970 had polluted streams, damaged vegetation and choked wetlands. The city, which runs the highway for the U.S. Forest Service, agreed in a settlement to complete paving by 2012.

Mountain weather was the main foe. Crews could put down asphalt only when the weather was warm and there wasn't snow, which meant a construction season of May through October — and only June through August on the upper stretches. A sudden squall could grind work to a halt.

"(The weather) can change up here so fast," said paver operator Jeff Bisel, who always stashed a bag with summer and winter clothing on his machine.

Construction machines broke down from the strain of working at high altitude, supplies took forever to arrive and workers had to blast through the side of the mountain in places to widen the road.

Through it all, the road had to remain open for the more than 250,000 people who drive it each year.

Also:

http://gazette.com/paving-way-up-pik.../article/16092

If you don't take increased visitation in account, high traffic gravel roads are almost always less environmentally friendly than paved roads. Visitation would increase though. I'm willing to bet that camping will become more limited to designated sites as well.

(PS, for anyone that doesn't know I am actually a strong wilderness advocate).

[qedcook]

Shane
Please read Desert Solitude by Edward Abbey.

The guys was an elitist eco-terrorist that viewed himself superior all mankind because he discovered the beauty of the desert earlier than others. But he was just as dependent on the advancement of roads and other established access points.

[Iceaxe]

The guys was an elitist eco-terrorist that viewed himself superior all mankind because he discovered the beauty of the desert earlier than others. But he was just as dependent on the advancement of roads and other established access points.

^^^Excellent post^^^

And for those playing along at home. I have read all Abbey's books.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[spinesnaper]

Great post, dude...It made me laugh out loud! I seriously doubt that they'll make anything down that road a National Park anytime soon, as the gov can barley afford the ones they're running now.

In regards to Mr. Abbey, he was, in my opinion, a piece of sh*t. If you read his book "Good News", you just might see him differently. Yeah, it sure would have been nice to have Arches all to yourself, enjoying the view and reveling in misanthropic thoughts...but those days are over.

A Westin in Escalante? Uh...I've gotta ask, does it bother you that they fixed up the Circle D?

Gosh, I should put the circle D back on my list if they gussied it up. Last time a stayed there, I elected to use my sleeping bag over their bedding. Just something about it gave me the willies. Last few times I have been in Escalante, I have bypassed the town and head straight to the Egypt trail head.

I regard ATVer's blazing their own way in the same category of terrorist as environmental monkey wrenchers.

I think one makes a big mistake to think that the Federal Government does not have money to make new Parks. Need I remind you that they print dollars?

Perhaps you sneer at the paved Riverside Walk out to the Narrows. However for many Zion park visitors, that is the highlight of their trip.

Pave Hole in the Rock Road and it will just be a matter of time before good folks (people who don't spend time posting on Bogley) decide that the area has to be preserved for future generations (from thoughtless scumbags) and making the area more accessible for taxpayers. It is beautiful, it is remote, and it is of profound historical interest. Those are precisely the kind of things that come into play to preserve an area as a National Monument or National Park. The area is already a National Monument. That only occurred in 1996 (Thank Bill Clinton for that). Upgrading it to a National Park and all the admission fees to be collected--Can you say "paved road." The two are going to go hand in hand. It's a prediction. I could be wrong.

Ken

[Iceaxe]

Anyhoo.... my issue is not about paving or not paving the HitRR. My issue is that American Canyoneer has taken a stand with little or no regard to their membership.


Does American Canyoneer intend to become SUWA Lite?


FWIW: this has always been my biggest fear with American Canyoneer and this is exactly what happened with the ACA. A lot of good people helped build the ACA, but when it was time for their voice to be heard and counted they were told their voice didn't matter.

[reverse_dyno]

Arches National Park already has massive traffic jams. I am sure Hole in the rock Road will have them as well. If people are willing to pay $10 a car to sit in traffic for an hour, they will surely head to GSENM to drive around on the nice new roads. They are free, and they can drive them with their rental car. The environmental issue is not the impact of the road, it is the hordes of tourists that will be driving and walking in every easy to get canyon along the new roads. Counties in southern Utah are among the most conservative places in the US. Do you really think they care about the environmental impacts of a road? They seem not to care about the environmental impacts of ATV's and oil and gas drilling. They want the road paved so that more tourists will come to the area and buy stuff.

[Scott P]

Arches National Park already has massive traffic jams.

I don't think it will be that way. In Arches National Park, you can see a lot of things by car. Other than a few attractions, you can't do the same on the Hole in the Rock Road. In fact, I hear from people who only drive the Hole in the Rock Road without getting out of the car say how disappointing it is. With perhaps some minor exceptions (Dance Hall Rock maybe?), to see the good stuff from the Hole in the Rock Road, you have to leave the road.

The Burr Trail has been paved in the Escalante region. Although traffic has increased, there are no huge traffic jams along it.

They seem not to care about the environmental impacts of ATV's and oil and gas drilling. They want the road paved so that more tourists will come to the area and buy stuff.

Agreed. Paving the road could actually help in this department. Tourism would give an alternate form of income for the locals, other than just oil drilling (which is important, but shouldn't be done everywhere) and overgrazing.

It's the roadless areas in the Escalante system that need protecting.

[Brian in SLC]

[spinesnaper]

Shane

I apologize for hijacking your thread. With a poll about whether to pave HitRR or not, I mistakenly thought that is what this thread was about.

Most member organizations are merely representative dictatorships. Most members may be interested but they will never put in the energy that the few who are actively involved in leading the organization put in on a day to day basis. Polling members on every issue is an interesting concept.

I do want to point out this is not the only park with a very long dead end road into the heart of it. In Alaska, in Denali National Park and Preserve, private vehicles are permitted only in the first 15 miles of the Park Road. However the road extends another 74 miles beyond that to Kantishna.

I am suggesting that if congestion did become an issue, National Parks tend to respond by restricting private vehicles ( examples include Yosemite, Zion, and Denali). I am not saying that the road would or wouldn't be paved. I also have no idea if the area is being considered for further preservation as a National Park. What I am suggesting is that paving the road will put additional pressures on the area and potentially create unforseen consequences that may impact our ability to access the area as we currently do with minimal restrictions. Those pressures are inevitable but paving the road will hasten these consequences in my opinion.

Ken

[yetigonecrazy]

^^^Excellent post^^^

And for those playing along at home. I have read all Abbey's books.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

x2

I think the issue here is inevitability- there are numerous pros and cons for both sides, but one thing we can all agree on is the traffic will do nothing except increase. The Burr Trail could be used as a good example here.

I like the idea of paving to Dance Hall Rock, but worry that the Rock itself would become a target for graffitti ala LWH. Pave it to the Dry Fork slots and call it good.....

Typ'n on my clunky big ole Pavilion a1600n

[Iceaxe]

I guess my biggest concern is I thought American Canyoneer was supposed to be about access.... The paving of HitRR is not something they should be concerned with as it has nothing to do with obtaining better access.

If American Canyoner intends to tackle such political issues and become SUWA Lite I plan to pull my support. Dang, next thing you know they will take a stand on gay marriage, firearms and abortion. And I all I ever wanted was someone that would represent me on the issue of access.

[Udink]

I'm waaaay too not-sober to read through this thread, but--isn't "keeping the gumbies out" a good enough reason not to pave? Yes, it's selfish reasoning. But isn't there a certain element that just shouldn't be (way) out there? While hiking the Dry Fork slot earlier this year I ran into a couple who wanted to hike cross-country with their daughter and dog from the top of the slot to the TH. I looked at the map in my GPS and informed them that it probably wasn't a good idea--it certainly wouldn't have saved them from any ups-and-downs, and probably would have put them in danger. I only see more restrictions come from paving the HITR road as more ruhtards find themselves where they wouldn't have dared go before.

[yetigonecrazy]

I'm waaaay too not-sober to read through this thread, but--isn't "keeping the gumbies out" a good enough reason not to pave? Yes, it's selfish reasoning. But isn't there a certain element that just shouldn't be (way) out there? While hiking the Dry Fork slot earlier this year I ran into a couple who wanted to hike cross-country with their daughter and dog from the top of the slot to the TH. I looked at the map in my GPS and informed them that it probably wasn't a good idea--it certainly wouldn't have saved them from any ups-and-downs, and probably would have put them in danger. I only see more restrictions come from paving the HITR road as more ruhtards find themselves where they wouldn't have dared go before.

It's a good point, but the bottom line is those people we laugh at we out there already. With the dirt road. And they and their brother and their 27 buddies are going to go there too. That's what I'm saying about inevitability. Like Scott said, the cost of maintaining a paved road (yes Shane, even with blowing sand, look at Temple Mtn/LWH road) is much less once it's in- if the people are going to come, which they will, then may as well build it. I don't like the idea of going all the way to the HITR takeout because I think leaving a piece of it unpaved, whether it be from Harris Wash, Dry Fork, or DHR, will create a bit of a barrier from the gumbies in grandma's Buick. Leave a good chunk of it down there to be wild. Unfortunately it will also increase traffic into Coyote Gulch, but let's be honest...strict rations arent far off there anyway. But I think it is a preferable option. I think there should be more effort to develop certain sites on the west side of the HITRR, between it and the Kaiparowits. Some decent campgrounds could be created pretty easy, and places like Collet Canyon could certainly be used for something like a loop hike. But these are just thoughts from someone on the outside looking in.

Someone should consult with the people in Escalante and see how they feel.

[Iceaxe]

I'm waaaay too not-sober to read through this thread, but--isn't "keeping the gumbies out" a good enough reason not to pave?

It might be a legitimate reason for some.... but not if you are an ACCESS organization committed to serving the general canyoneering public.

Oh wait... now I get it... AC is really only committed to serving the agendas of the Great Ones (TM).


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Brian in SLC]

That long dirt HITR road makes access into the heart of the Escalante unique. Just like going into the Maze. Pave it, and, it'll change the "feel" of the place.

Dirt roads are a part of the Western landscape. Washboards, ruts, those drainage ditches off the road that the county signed as ATV trails (ha ha...unbelievable...).

I guess, the more I think about it, the more I think leaving it dirt is ok. Maybe its a toss up on whether or not its an environmental deal or not. Appreciate Scott's put for sure.

[hank moon]

pavement leads to more traffic,

which leads to more impacts,

and finally, more regulation.

Keep it dirty!

See "A.C.E.S" for how the AC treats conservation as a necessary component of Access.

[oldno7]

pavement leads to more traffic,

which leads to more impacts,

and finally, more regulation.

Keep it dirty!

See "A.C.E.S" for how the AC treats conservation as a necessary component of Access.

Can you also post a link showing where the organization(as a whole) voted on this issue.

Would be interesting to see the total number of votes and what percentages agree/dis agree with AC's newly adopted position in HITR road.

Of course if these figures aren't available to it's membership(transparency) then it would be safe to say that the agenda of a few is making decisions for the many.

[yetigonecrazy]

AC is really only committed to serving the agendas of the Great Ones (TM).

Is this why the only AC service projects I've seen happen since they were created have been in the Grand Canyon, and no where else? Is the GC the only place worthy of a service project?

[deagol]

I can