Zion permit availability screen

[qedcook]

Again, why get an Englestead permit at all? Just get an Orderville permit. And even that's overkill!

[canyoncaver]

Again, why get an Englestead permit at all? Just get an Orderville permit. And even that's overkill!

Care to explain what the frack you are talking about here? How is getting one of the two required permits "overkill" ?

[Bo_Beck]

If it's all about the big drop, you could do how it's done here and not need an Orderville permit!

[nelsonccc]

Care to explain what the frack you are talking about here? How is getting one of the two required permits "overkill" ?

He's saying that since it sounds like you're required to have an Orderville permit then just get one of those and don't even bother with getting an Englestead Permit. Why pay for two permits when you only need one. You'd be poaching Englestead but be legal for the high traffic area where you're more likely to run into rangers. If I remember correctly I think it's only the last rap that is in the park anyways.

[canyoncaver]

We were just going to go down it anyways but appened to run into a couple of rangers at the exit of englestead who had hiked down to make sure we didn't go down orderville...

Your own quote above is reason enough for me to disagree.

[Aj84737]

When you link up canyons like englestead and orderville you only need to pay for one permit price not double. It shows everything on one permit. So therefor you don't need to pay twice. Das boot through the subway would be the same thing. 2 canyons 1 price. However doing 2 canyons such as keyhole and pine creek being they don't link up is 2 permits and you pay for twice.

[nelsonccc]

Your own quote above is reason enough for me to disagree.

True enough. There's always risk. In this case they where there since there was a flash flood warning and they wanted to make sure we went up. Of the 6-7 times I've done Englestead and the 2-3 times I've done Birch this was the only time I saw a ranger. And I stand by my statement that if you secure an Orderville permit then you take out most of the risk.

[TommyBoy]

I don't know, if I was a ranger and saw someone hauling 300' of rope down orderville, I'd be mighty suspicious.

[Iceaxe]

I don't know, if I was a ranger and saw someone hauling 300' of rope down orderville, I'd be mighty suspicious.

Which is why you wouldn't carry 300' of rope. It's much easier to stay low profile using the staged entrance and being able to carry all your rope inside your packs (or have a partner pull your 300' rope after you begin the route). And you can't have any climbing gear or helmets hanging from your pack after you hit Orderville.

As a general rule the permits system really stops the novice canyoneer and those unfamiliar with the routes from poaching. Experienced canyoneers who are familiar with the routes have little difficulty poaching any of the Zion routes if that is their desire.

[ratagonia]

When you link up canyons like englestead and orderville you only need to pay for one permit price not double. It shows everything on one permit. So therefor you don't need to pay twice. Das boot through the subway would be the same thing. 2 canyons 1 price. However doing 2 canyons such as keyhole and pine creek being they don't link up is 2 permits and you pay for twice.

If you walked from Keyhole to Pine Creek, you would only need one permit. Most people though prefer to drive.

Tom

[ratagonia]

I don't know, if I was a ranger and saw someone hauling 300' of rope down orderville, I'd be mighty suspicious.

Which prompts me to remind you:

A. do not lie to a Federal Law Enforcement person. They can tell, usually, and they kinda take it personally. This is a larger offense than poaching a canyon.

B. If a ranger asks you what you have been doing, you can say "I have been enjoying the beauty of Zion National Park". You are not required to be more specific when they ask you questions regarding their fishing expedition. Before the magistrate, it is their responsibility to prove an infraction occurred. They can give you a ticket based on suspicion, but...

C. If you are poaching canyons, you should probably not ego-blog about it on a public forum.

I am not a lawyer, but I play one in my imagination...

[nelsonccc]

If you walked from Keyhole to Pine Creek, you would only need one permit. Most people though prefer to drive.

Tom

Really? I didn't know that. That's especially good to know 'cause it's usally pretty easy to get a Keyhole permit and not so much for a Pine permit.

[qedcook]

C. If you are poaching canyons, you should probably not ego-blog about it on a public forum.

I am not a lawyer, but I play one in my imagination...

Couldn't agree more. You have to be careful and word things carefully whenever you send out anything, a text, a blog, an email, anything. I am talking strictly hypothetical stuff here. When I did Englestead, I got a permit. But if the permit hadn't been available, I don't know what I would have done...

[2065toyota]

But if the permit hadn't been available, I don't know what I would have done...

Could just choose one of the other 60+ canyons available in the Zion area to do

[Scott P]

That's especially good to know 'cause it's usally pretty easy to get a Keyhole permit and not so much for a Pine permit.

You can do them as a single permit, but there actually needs to be spaces in both canyons for them to give you that permit.

Same with Echo/Mystery combo, for example. Echo/Mystery would be fairly easy to combine, but they won't give you a combined permit for both canyons unless spaces are open for both canyons. If you read carefully though, you don't need a permit to ascend slot canyons. If you can climb up Echo you won't need a permit. I have thought of trying it with a happy hooker, but don't know how hard it would be.

[ratagonia]

Really? I didn't know that. That's especially good to know 'cause it's usally pretty easy to get a Keyhole permit and not so much for a Pine permit.

You would still need Pine Creek quota, but you would pay for only one permit, a Keyhole & Pine Creek permit.

T

[ratagonia]

You can do them as a single permit, but there actually needs to be spaces in both canyons for them to give you that permit.

Same with Echo/Mystery combo, for example. Echo/Mystery would be fairly easy to combine, but they won't give you a combined permit for both canyons unless spaces are open for both canyons. If you read carefully though, you don't need a permit to ascend slot canyons. If you can climb up Echo you won't need a permit. I have thought of trying it with a happy hooker, but don't know how hard it would be.

Incorrect. You need a permit to be in a part of a canyon that is normally traversed with ropes. So it requires no permit to wade and scramble up Middle Echo to the base of the last rappel, but proceeding further from there would require a permit.

As I said, I play a lawyer in my imagination...

Tom

[skiclimb3287]

Skiclimb. What day in august we have 12 slots for ordervile on aug. 9th its a friday. i should have some extra ones if you want them. i am not sure on my group size yet but if that is the same weekend you will be there we can figure a way of giving them to you. If not i will let the dest know that what our group size is a couple days before.

Thanks for the offer Canyonguru! We are actually doing the canyon on the 10th and have the permits to go down Orderville. We were originally trying to switch to the weekend prior to accommodate some friends of ours and only could get Englestead up, but other friends signed on for the 10th so we are keeping it there.

Can't wait. It will be all of out first times down Englestead!!!!

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk 2

[Bo_Beck]

I always lie when I'm getting rung up at a register and a clerk forgets to ring up an item. I get to the car and realize what a great deal I've gotten. They'll never know the difference. It's easy to do a little tweaking to i-phones so that all movie downloads are free....those guys in the movie industry are so rich they'll never know the difference. I hide a can of beer with a coke can cover when I'm driving. That always throws them off. They'll never know the difference. Just curious though? At your jobs (work) do you purposely deviate from your standards to see what your boss or bottom line might see? Lets say that you start a database at your work to see what the affect of using a cheaper asian material in the production might have in the quality of your product might be; low and behold the supplier has been sneaking in USA materials because he found them cheaper. Now you are convinced that asian materials are the way to go, so you turn your total production of goods to asian materials. You soon find out that quality issues have become an issue because they've reverted to actual asian materials. What value is your database? ...figure it out. Poach as you may and I'll always watch you with an eagle eye when you enter my business...rest assured. And thanks for letting me know who you are.

[hank moon]

this thread...like a bunch of 3rd graders talking about sex :) oops.