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Thread: Zion permit availability screen
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06-12-2013, 01:32 PM #1
Zion permit availability screen
I recently had a friend wait at the Zion backcountry desk for a really long time only to find out that there weren't any walk-in permits available for any interesting canyons. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, and would be easily solved by a screen that displayed permit availability located at the backcountry desk. I would love to just do this myself because it's so easy. My pitch would be:
I've observed a problem where people waiting in the backcountry desk line can't tell whether it's worth waiting because the canyon(s) they want aren't even available. I'd like to solve this problem by giving you this device and a monitor for free -- it will display how many permits are available for each canyon (like the image below), updated every few minutes automatically with no intervention. It consumes only 5W with the monitor off, so the total annual electricity cost should be well under $10. The only operation it requires is for a ranger to turn the monitor on and off according to when it's needed. The only things I'd need in order to install it for you would be a power outlet and and ethernet jack (or someone to type in the wifi password, if one exists).
Does anyone have any knowledge or experience about who at Zion I should talk to about this and whether they might be receptive?
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06-12-2013 01:32 PM # ADS
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06-12-2013, 02:00 PM #2
Couldn't you just look online the day before or the morning of your trip? I guess if you're camping you may not have internet access.
PS, although possible, it seems somewhat unlikely, but possible that there wouldn't be any permits for any interesting canyons. Some of the best canyons aren't on the advanced permit system. Or so I've heard.Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.
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06-12-2013, 02:23 PM #3
Zion has pretty much eliminated the walk in permit (at the request of canyoneers). Basically half the permits are available (some require a lottery selection) on-line 3 months in advanced and the remaining half of the permits are released 3 days in advance in the "last chance lottery". With the current system expecting good permits to still be available as a walk-in is unreasonable.
Anyone standing in the permit line for a "good" canyon during peak canyoneering season is playing under the old rules and is wasting their time.
And you can always check on-line to see which canyons have permits available.
https://zionpermits.nps.gov/wilderness.cfm?TripTypeID=3
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06-12-2013, 02:31 PM #4
Yep, or it may be difficult to access the desktop-oriented web page from some mobile devices, or it may be tedious to load 16 different pages to collect the useful information, or I may be 10 minutes into a 45 minute wait when someone reserves the permits I had checked were available before driving in.
Seems like this happens the most often when it affects the most people (holiday weekends, for instance). I'm sure the number of days on which it happens is pretty low, but those happen to be the days the most people are most interested in.
Hmm, maybe there are some secret Zion canyons? The only 3-star Zion canyons Tom lists that require permits but aren't listed online are Kolob, Icebox, and Russell (and I doubt Russell would be 3 stars without the Subway exit...?).
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06-12-2013, 02:42 PM #5The only 3-star Zion canyons Tom lists that require permits but aren't listed online are Kolob, Icebox, and Russell (and I doubt Russell would be 3 stars without the Subway exit...?).
Shane is right though. If you are looking into the popular canyons, expecting a walk in during peak season isn't that reasonable. Book ahead or apply for the drawing.Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.
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06-12-2013, 02:45 PM #6
Without a doubt... this is the third or fourth best canyon in Zion and its not on the permit list.
Checkerboard Canyon Route Description
The canyon did suffer after the 2007 Dakota Hills fire, but it has since returned to one of the best slots in Zion.
Enjoy...
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06-12-2013, 02:46 PM #7●Canyoneering 'Canyon Conditions' @ www.candition.com
●Hiking Treks (my younger brother's website): hiking guides @ www.thetrekplanner.com
"He who walks on the edge...will eventually fall."
"There are two ways to die in the desert - dehydration and drowning." -overhearing a Park Ranger at Capitol Reef N.P.
"...the first law of gear-dynamics: gear is like a gas - it will expand to fit the available space." -Wortman, Outside magazine.
"SEND IT, BRO!!"
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06-12-2013, 02:51 PM #8
Not to troll this thread, but who needs a permit? Just do the canyon anyway. Permits? We don't got no stinking permits, we don't need no stinking permits!
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06-12-2013, 02:53 PM #9
I wasn't terribly impressed with Checkerboard. It was good and all, but top 5?
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06-12-2013, 02:54 PM #10
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06-12-2013, 02:56 PM #11
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06-12-2013, 03:01 PM #12
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06-12-2013, 03:31 PM #13
And its length probably makes it not such a good "in between" canyon (which is what I imagine most people doing walk-ins are trying to get).
Even Keyhole was 100% booked Memorial Day weekend (though, somewhat to be expected on that weekend as you point out)
Thanks for the tip -- good thing I'm already in the Circle :) My team and I appreciated your Red Hollow beta as an in-between canyon last time we couldn't get permits.
Oddly, I couldn't find his official contact info, but he has very low privacy settings on his Facebook profile. Thanks for the name.
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06-12-2013, 04:14 PM #14
In my brief time as a canyoneer, I have already received several Zion permits as a walk in. In all cases, there was almost no line and in all cases I was without an internet connection or smartphone to check availability on my own. Still, I see the usefullness. It would be nice to be able to clearly see what is available for the next 2-3 days and plan accordingly, rather than asking the ranger to look up permits for every canyon I have interest in (and then going back 5 minutes later when I realize I forgot to check this other one).
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06-12-2013, 04:35 PM #15
We did it in '07 fairly recently after the fire and it was a mess. Everything was coated in slick black mud. We came out of there looking like we'd been to hell and back. Comparing my pictures to the ones Dan just posted its like night and day. Im thinking i may have to go back....
beefcake. BEEFCAKE!
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06-12-2013, 04:49 PM #16
If you are the type to get a permit then you do need one for the narrows when doing checkerboard since you drop in above big springs.
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06-12-2013, 05:06 PM #17
That's not correct....
To do it all legally you ask for a Checkerboard permit. If you get a Checkerboard permit it includes the Narrows exit. Just write it up as entering at Dakota Hills and exiting at the Temple of Sinawava.
This is the same as getting an Englestead permit, which includes exiting out Orderville (no seperate Orderville permit required).
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06-12-2013, 08:05 PM #18
Huh the ranger at the desk must not have known what he was doin. Big surprise there.
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06-13-2013, 08:48 AM #19CanyoneeringUtah.blogspot.com
My YouTube Channel
"As you journey through life, choose your destination well, but do not hurry there. You will arrive soon enough. Wander the back roads and forgotten path[s] ... Such things are riches for the soul. And if upon arrival, you find that your destination is not exactly as you had dreamed, ... know that the true worth of your travels lies not in where you come to be at journey
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06-13-2013, 09:10 AM #20
FYI-
Kolob includes a Narrows permit.
Englestead includes Orderville
Checkerboard includes Narrows
Bulloch includes Orderville
Just make sure you list your intended start and finish on the permit. One hiccup in this and that is if you are doing Kolob as a two day through hike you must reserve a Narrows camp spot or bivy before you reach the Narrows.
Tap'n on my Galaxy G3
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