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Thread: Zion permit availability screen

  1. #1

    Zion permit availability screen

    I recently had a friend wait at the Zion backcountry desk for a really long time only to find out that there weren't any walk-in permits available for any interesting canyons. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, and would be easily solved by a screen that displayed permit availability located at the backcountry desk. I would love to just do this myself because it's so easy. My pitch would be:

    I've observed a problem where people waiting in the backcountry desk line can't tell whether it's worth waiting because the canyon(s) they want aren't even available. I'd like to solve this problem by giving you this device and a monitor for free -- it will display how many permits are available for each canyon (like the image below), updated every few minutes automatically with no intervention. It consumes only 5W with the monitor off, so the total annual electricity cost should be well under $10. The only operation it requires is for a ranger to turn the monitor on and off according to when it's needed. The only things I'd need in order to install it for you would be a power outlet and and ethernet jack (or someone to type in the wifi password, if one exists).
    Name:  PermitSign.jpg
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    Does anyone have any knowledge or experience about who at Zion I should talk to about this and whether they might be receptive?

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  4. #2
    Couldn't you just look online the day before or the morning of your trip? I guess if you're camping you may not have internet access.

    PS, although possible, it seems somewhat unlikely, but possible that there wouldn't be any permits for any interesting canyons. Some of the best canyons aren't on the advanced permit system. Or so I've heard.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  5. #3
    Zion has pretty much eliminated the walk in permit (at the request of canyoneers). Basically half the permits are available (some require a lottery selection) on-line 3 months in advanced and the remaining half of the permits are released 3 days in advance in the "last chance lottery". With the current system expecting good permits to still be available as a walk-in is unreasonable.

    Anyone standing in the permit line for a "good" canyon during peak canyoneering season is playing under the old rules and is wasting their time.

    And you can always check on-line to see which canyons have permits available.
    https://zionpermits.nps.gov/wilderness.cfm?TripTypeID=3

  6. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    I guess if you're camping you may not have internet access.
    Yep, or it may be difficult to access the desktop-oriented web page from some mobile devices, or it may be tedious to load 16 different pages to collect the useful information, or I may be 10 minutes into a 45 minute wait when someone reserves the permits I had checked were available before driving in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    PS, although possible, it seems somewhat unlikely, but possible that there wouldn't be any permits for any interesting canyons.
    Seems like this happens the most often when it affects the most people (holiday weekends, for instance). I'm sure the number of days on which it happens is pretty low, but those happen to be the days the most people are most interested in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    Some of the best canyons aren't on the advanced permit system. Or so I've heard.
    Hmm, maybe there are some secret Zion canyons? The only 3-star Zion canyons Tom lists that require permits but aren't listed online are Kolob, Icebox, and Russell (and I doubt Russell would be 3 stars without the Subway exit...?).

  7. #5
    The only 3-star Zion canyons Tom lists that require permits but aren't listed online are Kolob, Icebox, and Russell (and I doubt Russell would be 3 stars without the Subway exit...?).
    Icebox is a good one, though the approach is fairly hot during the height of summer. Shane has some good ones listed on his site that aren't listed online and yes there are more. Keyhole usually doesn't fill up either, but it's short.

    Shane is right though. If you are looking into the popular canyons, expecting a walk in during peak season isn't that reasonable. Book ahead or apply for the drawing.
    Utah is a very special and unique place. There is no where else like it on earth. Please take care of it and keep the remaining wild areas in pristine condition. The world will be a better place if you do.

  8. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bjp View Post
    Hmm, maybe there are some secret Zion canyons? The only 3-star Zion canyons Tom lists that require permits but aren't listed online are Kolob, Icebox, and Russell (and I doubt Russell would be 3 stars without the Subway exit...?).
    Without a doubt... this is the third or fourth best canyon in Zion and its not on the permit list.

    Checkerboard Canyon Route Description

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    The canyon did suffer after the 2007 Dakota Hills fire, but it has since returned to one of the best slots in Zion.

    Enjoy...

  9. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjp View Post
    I recently had a friend wait at the Zion backcountry desk for a really long time only to find out that there weren't any walk-in permits available for any interesting canyons. That seems pretty ridiculous to me, and would be easily solved by a screen that displayed permit availability located at the backcountry desk. I would love to just do this myself because it's so easy. My pitch would be:

    I've observed a problem where people waiting in the backcountry desk line can't tell whether it's worth waiting because the canyon(s) they want aren't even available. I'd like to solve this problem by giving you this device and a monitor for free -- it will display how many permits are available for each canyon (like the image below), updated every few minutes automatically with no intervention. It consumes only 5W with the monitor off, so the total annual electricity cost should be well under $10. The only operation it requires is for a ranger to turn the monitor on and off according to when it's needed. The only things I'd need in order to install it for you would be a power outlet and and ethernet jack (or someone to type in the wifi password, if one exists).
    Name:  PermitSign.jpg
Views: 909
Size:  60.0 KB

    Does anyone have any knowledge or experience about who at Zion I should talk to about this and whether they might be receptive?
    I like the idea. You could try contacting Jock Whitworth - the Zion Superintendent. Worth a shot id say.
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  10. #8
    Not to troll this thread, but who needs a permit? Just do the canyon anyway. Permits? We don't got no stinking permits, we don't need no stinking permits!

  11. #9
    I wasn't terribly impressed with Checkerboard. It was good and all, but top 5?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    Not to troll this thread, but who needs a permit? Just do the canyon anyway. Permits? We don't got no stinking permits, we don't need no stinking permits!

    I don't have to run faster than the ranger.... I just have to run faster than you.


  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by qedcook View Post
    I wasn't terribly impressed with Checkerboard. It was good and all, but top 5?
    When did you do it? The Dakota Hills fire really trashed the canyon and filled it with debris and sand. It has only recently (meaning this year, maybe last) returned to top form.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    When did you do it? The Dakota Hills fire really trashed the canyon and filled it with debris and sand. It has only recently (meaning this year, maybe last) returned to top form.
    Whoa, Iceaxe, I ain't telling you when. You're just trying to check if I had a permit to do it! jk. I did it this year, within the last month. It was good and a must-do, but I'd rate Kolob, Pine Creek, Subway, and Mystery above it. Haven't done Heaps or Imlay.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    Icebox is a good one, though the approach is fairly hot during the height of summer.
    And its length probably makes it not such a good "in between" canyon (which is what I imagine most people doing walk-ins are trying to get).

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott P View Post
    Keyhole usually doesn't fill up either, but it's short.
    Even Keyhole was 100% booked Memorial Day weekend (though, somewhat to be expected on that weekend as you point out)


    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Without a doubt... this is the third or fourth best canyon in Zion and its not on the permit list.
    Thanks for the tip -- good thing I'm already in the Circle :) My team and I appreciated your Red Hollow beta as an in-between canyon last time we couldn't get permits.

    Quote Originally Posted by jman View Post
    I like the idea. You could try contacting Jock Whitworth - the Zion Superintendent. Worth a shot id say.
    Oddly, I couldn't find his official contact info, but he has very low privacy settings on his Facebook profile. Thanks for the name.

  16. #14
    In my brief time as a canyoneer, I have already received several Zion permits as a walk in. In all cases, there was almost no line and in all cases I was without an internet connection or smartphone to check availability on my own. Still, I see the usefullness. It would be nice to be able to clearly see what is available for the next 2-3 days and plan accordingly, rather than asking the ranger to look up permits for every canyon I have interest in (and then going back 5 minutes later when I realize I forgot to check this other one).

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    When did you do it? The Dakota Hills fire really trashed the canyon and filled it with debris and sand. It has only recently (meaning this year, maybe last) returned to top form.
    We did it in '07 fairly recently after the fire and it was a mess. Everything was coated in slick black mud. We came out of there looking like we'd been to hell and back. Comparing my pictures to the ones Dan just posted its like night and day. Im thinking i may have to go back....
    beefcake. BEEFCAKE!

  18. #16
    If you are the type to get a permit then you do need one for the narrows when doing checkerboard since you drop in above big springs.

  19. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TommyBoy View Post
    If you are the type to get a permit then you do need one for the narrows when doing checkerboard since you drop in above big springs.
    That's not correct....

    To do it all legally you ask for a Checkerboard permit. If you get a Checkerboard permit it includes the Narrows exit. Just write it up as entering at Dakota Hills and exiting at the Temple of Sinawava.

    This is the same as getting an Englestead permit, which includes exiting out Orderville (no seperate Orderville permit required).

  20. #18
    Huh the ranger at the desk must not have known what he was doin. Big surprise there.

  21. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    This is the same as getting an Englestead permit, which includes exiting out Orderville (no seperate Orderville permit required).
    So wish I would have known about this 2 weeks ago. $5 wasted!!
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  22. #20
    FYI-
    Kolob includes a Narrows permit.
    Englestead includes Orderville
    Checkerboard includes Narrows
    Bulloch includes Orderville

    Just make sure you list your intended start and finish on the permit. One hiccup in this and that is if you are doing Kolob as a two day through hike you must reserve a Narrows camp spot or bivy before you reach the Narrows.

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