Guide Books Love Em or Hate Em?

[Robert Lefkow]

With the exception of Bo & Tanya's book that highlights known areas, how do you feel about the books by Larry Matress (Laurent Matres) and Kelsey? Last time I went to Zebra, i raced 3 German guys there and it was destroyed when I got there. First time I went, it was special and there were no footprints anywhere. My friend just sent me photos with grafitti all over the walls from the other day. I hate these folks who cash in on special locations just to make a buck. They cause the roads to be closed (to Wahweap Wash) and cause so many cool places to get ruined. A place like Bogley is designed to help friends get to cool places, but these guide books cause so much damage. I have also been to a few local Art shows where photographer's have every shot in the guide books without one original shot. It's a big world out there, do we have to go around copying other peoples shots. That's why I like Bogley, it's a nice small society, but beware, the vampires are out there. Probably lurking on Bogley too for there next cash in.

[DesertDuke]

Difficult subject. Lots of heated threads on here about sharing info or keeping it secret. I mostly soak up the info and contribute little so in a different way I am a different version of a "vampire" I guess. I'm a Bogley-info leech.

[middlefork]

There are not many secret places left that nobody knows about. With today technology there may not be any. I may or may not know your secret spots and you mine. No harm in shareing the genie is already out of the bottle.

Want more adventure don't read the beta.

[Iceaxe]

In my humble opinion...... If you have purchased a guidebook you are as guilty as the author of the guidebook of any perceived wrong. This is a double edged sword. People would not write and publish guidebooks if they were not popular and profitable. Guidebooks make our lives easier. Placing the blame for perceived wrong only on the author is silly. It takes two for this dance to succeed.

Of course I'm speaking as someone who owns hundreds of guidebooks and has written a couple, so what do I know...

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[Brian in SLC]

Last time I went to Zebra, i raced 3 German guys there and it was destroyed when I got there.

Curious...how was Zebra destroyed? You raced some guys to it, they beat you, and destroyed the canyon?

[kiwi_outdoors]

With the exception of Bo & Tanya's book that highlights known areas, how do you feel about the books by Larry Matress (Laurent Matres) and Kelsey? Last time I went to Zebra, i raced 3 German guys there and it was destroyed when I got there. First time I went, it was special and there were no footprints anywhere. My friend just sent me photos with grafitti all over the walls from the other day. I hate these folks who cash in on special locations just to make a buck. They cause the roads to be closed (to Wahweap Wash) and cause so many cool places to get ruined. A place like Bogley is designed to help friends get to cool places, but these guide books cause so much damage. I have also been to a few local Art shows where photographer's have every shot in the guide books without one original shot. It's a big world out there, do we have to go around copying other peoples shots. That's why I like Bogley, it's a nice small society, but beware, the vampires are out there. Probably lurking on Bogley too for there next cash in.

Who the hell puts graffiti on canyon walls? Answer: the ancient folks who came to Shamans Gallery maybe 1,00 years after the first layer of graffiti (red paint art) (not us recent folks). Some things never change.

[Byron]

There is this canyon on the east side of the Escalante River, down south near Scorpion Gulch. My hiking and exploring partner and I first figured out how to get into it when absolutely no information was available anywhere...just a topo map and sharp eyes. At that time, very few people ever ventured into that area...the only signs of recent human activity was the occasional rusty horseshoe or tin can, cowboy stuff. And even those were generally close to the river.

Anyway, this particular canyon has a great camp spot...there's two potholes that always have water next to an alcove that the Fremont/Anasazi camped in. I remember when I first encountered it, the feeling of amazement that we may have been the first humans to set eyes on it in centuries...mainly because it was in pristine condition. Pot shards, flint chips and stone tools looking like no one had touched them. It was awesome...it always is when you come upon a place like that.

A couple years later, Steve Allen published a book that detailed not only this canyon, but routes through the Navajo cliffs all over that area. He named the canyon, too. He called it Fold Canyon.

I was so happy to have that book, as I held in my hands something that saved Herb and I days, maybe weeks, of poking around. Steve and Mike Kelsey's books were like Bibles to me.

A couple years after Allen's book came out, I was back at Fold, back at the campsite with the potholes and Indian alcove. This time, however, the "pristine" thing was over. Someone had stacked the artifacts like a display, some moron had dug some holes in the sand, looking for more, there was micro trash. I distinctly recall standing there and having a bit of an epiphany...I'm sure you can imagine what it was.

Years later, while camping in a remote canyon near Navajo Mountain, some guy came walking up to our camp. I was quite surprised to see a lone hiker way the hell out in the boonies. As he approached, I said "Hey man, you look like Mike Kelsey"!

He stood up straight, had a bit of a worried look on his face and said "Who's asking?"...not knowing if I was a friend or foe. He didn't know if I'd shake his hand or hit him in the face. Well, I practically fell to my knees in hero worship, and we exchanged phone numbers (this was the old days...) he later told me he gets hate mail.

We did a lot of stuff together. This was at the time he was doing research for his Slot Canyoneering book, at the same time getting ready to update his Colorado Plateau book. He picked my brain about canyons when we hiked, as he doesn't get too far into the backcountry because he hates carrying a big pack. A lot of the info I gave freely, BUT...

When it got to ruins, my attitude about giving the beta changed. I've heard it said that there are no more undiscovered ruins...I beg to differ, because I've found some. Not whole villages mind you, mostly granaries and campsites with "stuff". Anyway, Mike wanted to know where these places were...I was kinda vague with descriptions so he asked for copies of my topo maps. I didn't send them, I never talked to him again...not because I was mad, as he's just doing his job, but because I remembered the Fold Canyon alcove.

Guidebooks are both a boon and a bane...you love them until what they describe are loved to death.

[erial]

“Most of my wandering in the desert i've done alone. not so much from choice as from necessity - i generally prefer to go into places where no one else wants to go. i find that in contemplating the natural world my pleasure is greater if there are not too many others contemplating it with me, at the same time.” For some of us Abbey may have been the first guide. Plenty of those preferred places are still out there.

[phatch]

Guide books have been very helpful to me. I am grateful to Kelsey, Allen, Burrows and more for their sharing.

I think there needs to be more outreach from the outdoors community on ethics and basic skills and manners in the outdoors. Scouting was good for me there, but it has it's own baggage now and is not the focus of that program.

[reverse_dyno]

Most people follow the routes in the guide books, which will tend to focus the traffic to those areas. You can always use the guide books and look for areas not in them, which will receive little if any traffic.