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Thread: Poe, Dog access...

  1. #1

    Poe, Dog access...

    Taylor made an excellent trip report regarding a seldom visited canyon...very seldom. It appears that most who have done the slots in this area always take one of two very long approaches...I know a better way, one that cuts the slog from either the airstrip route or the lake by more than half. That's a big deal, because it saves hours of walking. I posted a comment regarding it on Taylor's thread and then KABOOM...I had a decision to make.

    Soon after, I received several PMs, mostly from guys who want the beta on the route...particularly the spot to downclimb the cliff east of Halls, as that is the crux...figuring out how to get there from the road would be easy enough.

    One PM, however, was a member here that expressed dismay that I had let the cat out of the bag. This person tried to persuade me to keep it a secret...fearing that easier access would result in a nice place possibly getting thrashed. That message set me back on my heels a bit, because I've ranted about beta to pristine places resulting in destruction in the past...In other words, "Hey Byron, practice what you preach".

    I sent a PM back saying I'd think about it...and I did, so here's the result. There are ruins I've discovered with artifacts that I would NEVER divulge their locations here, or anywhere. Those are "sacred", and we all know what would happen if someone slapped up beta to their locations. These slots however, are not sacred. They're on the Super Canyons map, and that makes them fair game. That's how Taylor found them, and it's how I discovered them as well. If folks start hitting them more often now, it's inevitable that someone will figure out this shortcut...any competent route finder will look to those cliffs and do a scouting trip. I did, and I've led plenty of people through there on backpacking trips.

    I decided to make a new thread on this because I didn't want to hijack Taylor'
    s, as I figured this may draw a big discussion. Some will be very grateful for this info and some may get pissed, but I don't think it's a big deal. The overland from the road to the Halls cliffs are jacked by cows and ATVs anyway, and the canyons themselves aren't anyone's private playground. This map is only going to be valuable to those hardcore canyoneers that want to go big...and I suspect that they're the more responsible types.

    The map is here so I don't have to make a bunch of phone calls trying to detail it. Park on the Burr trail at the top of the switchbacks above Bullfrog creek...there is a big slickrock spot for many cars, you can't miss it. Take a compass bearing for the mouth of Miller's creek and go...It'll take you about 2 hours to get to the cliff. Once there, go straight to the spot on the map below and look for cairns...this spot is EXACTLY where you have to be...it's the only way down. No ropes or rappelling is needed, but if anyone needs a handline, perhaps these canyons are a bit out of their league. Have fun...
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  3. #2
    Let me be the first to say thanks for sharing the route.



    FWIW: easier access is all relative.... there is still nothing easy about doing any of the slots in this area and I don't see any of these canyons becoming "popular" or over used.

    Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

  4. #3
    Thanks for sharing Byron. I'm sure the community knows who was trying to get you to hold back the beta - the usual crowd I suspect. I'm glad you weren't brainwashed by their elite BS, perpetuating their ridiculous notion that somehow they are the only ones fit to do certain routes or canyons.

    If it makes any of them feel better (or worse), I was planning on scouting and publishing the route this fall if I could make it go.

    Thanks again,

    MS

  5. #4
    Byron,
    Thanks for considering carefully your decision and for sharing your reasoning to disclose the 'shortcut' to the known Hall's Creek canyons. It is such a tough route in from the top when heavily loaded with all the gear needed and most people do not have access (not to mention expense) to a boat to come in from the bottom (Powell). A couple of us on our trip didn't recover enough from the pack in to really enjoy the canyons once there. The trip out was brutal after several days of pushing hard and the route out being uphill. I appreciate greatly knowing about the shortcut.
    I know of a dozen different groups that have gone into that area this spring. It isn't seldom visited. All kinds and types of people are going to do those canyons. I consider revealing your route as a service to the community, well thought out, and valuable. I appreciate you sharing freely your knowledge.
    Your thinking is somewhat flawed on two fronts. One: beginners, moderates, and experienced people are already going. The shortcut will encourage even more people who may not be ready. I am ok with that because I am a huge proponent of personal responsibility.
    Two: you assume that people who are experienced are more careful with the environment. That is not necessarily true. Ghosts are leaving rope grooves all over the Plateau. It is imperative to protect these canyons we love not by secrecy but by continued education in proper techniques used wisely and at the appropriate times.
    Thanks for taking this difficult stance.

    Penny

  6. #5
    I laugh at all the 'reasoning', because none of it matters. No disrespect to anyone. Let me explain:

    If Byron hadn't published that route, then I would have. Or somebody just like me. The army of people that publish grows every day.

    The tidal wave of beta being released is unstoppable. I used to call it inevitable, now I call it exponential. On average, I add more than one canyon a day to The Map and the pace is accelerating.

    A friend told me recently that he is extra motivated to do the explorations on his 'to do' list. If he wants to get to them first, then he should be! What used to be invisible to others is now easily found and quickly conquered.

    I'd never hesitate to share a quality tip like this one. Nice work Byron!
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post

    Two: you assume that people who are experienced are more careful with the environment. That is not necessarily true. Ghosts are leaving rope grooves all over the Plateau. It is imperative to protect these canyons we love not by secrecy but by continued education in proper techniques used wisely and at the appropriate times.

    Thanks for taking this difficult stance.

    Penny
    Bravo. Education, open dialogue, and over communicating are some of our best tools in protecting the resources we all hold precious. With growth, comes greater respect and responsibility by all. There will be those that cause harm that unfortunately impacts those who work so hard to protect (permits, closing things down, etc). We must act quickly with solutions, especially when we see that harm.

  8. #7
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post
    is imperative to protect these canyons we love not by secrecy but by continued education in proper techniques used wisely and at the appropriate times.
    Thanks for taking this difficult stance.

    Penny
    I'm glad somebody else thinks the same. Standardization and Education are key to preservation.
    ●Canyoneering 'Canyon Conditions' @ www.candition.com
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot Machine View Post
    If Byron hadn't published that route, then I would have. Or somebody just like me. The army of people that publish grows every day.
    Bingo. If it is to be inevitably published, from whom and in which environment would we like that publication to occur?

    In my opinion, sharing sensitive information of a delicate area would be at an advantage in a forum like this, expressing proper warning and care for the area, what mistakes would damage the environment, proper access techniques...

    If this information is going to be published, I believe this is a great and responsible place to do it. That way the community has some control on how it is shared, rather than through some other media that has no regard for the environment nor the canyoneering community reputation.


  10. Likes Byron liked this post
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Schnupp View Post
    I'm sure the community knows who was trying to get you to hold back the beta - the usual crowd I suspect.

    MS
    I don't think I've been here long enough to know who the "usual suspects" are. It's funny sometimes how I'll pick up on these certain casual references, but scratch my head wondering who and how the dynamic came to be. Surprisingly, the person who contacted me on this matter posts on this forum very rarely...so it may not be who you were thinking?

    Regardless, that person didn't bust my chops...in fact, she (yes, she) was really cool about it. I wonder as she reads my reasoning and also what everyone else has to say around here might change her mind?

    Anyway, thanks to everyone that agrees with what I did...I'm pretty sensitive to the pristine thing, I just didn't feel that it really applies in this case. Just don't ask me about beta regarding some of the canyons around Navajo Mountain...
    Life is what you make it. Everybody knows that...right?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by penmartens View Post
    It is imperative to protect these canyons we love not by secrecy but by continued education in proper techniques used wisely and at the appropriate times.
    Thanks for taking this difficult stance.
    Well said.

    And on a similar note.... something I have learned spraying beta is the person that first releases the information has a lot of power in how the information is used and what ethics apply. There is no better time to educate than when the beta is first released.


  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Iceaxe View Post
    Well said.

    And on a similar note.... something I have learned spraying beta is the person that first releases the information has a lot of power in how the information is used and what ethics apply. There is no better time to educate than when the beta is first released.

    Oh, I like that...so here it is: THE WORD FROM ON HIGH, since I'm the guy who sprayed the beta...

    Pay particular attention to the dookie...nothing is worse that seeing wads of buttwipe stuck in the bushes. There's not much around there that'll catch fire, burn it, man! Pick up all the trash, even the micro stuff. Don't build fire rings...if you use rocks to hold down the edge of your tent, put them back where you found them before you leave. Those are my biggest pet peeves...rope groves, slings, bolts and hooking holes are going to happen, live with it. That last sentence may draw some ire, but hoping for 100% ghosting is hoping against reality.

    Like I said earlier, I fully expect all the badass canyoneers around here to do the right things, right? I don't think the lower end of Hall's will turn into another Coyote Gulch anytime soon...
    Life is what you make it. Everybody knows that...right?

  14. #12
    These slots however, are not sacred. They're on the Super Canyons map, and that makes them fair game.
    So ruins shouldn't be beta'd 'cause they are "sacred" but canyons should be beta'd because they aren't "sacred" because they are on some Bogley map somewhere?
    Are you sure you didn't just reaaaaaaaly wanna make this post and now you're rationalizing it? Cause that logic doesn't make any sense to me.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by SRG View Post
    So ruins shouldn't be beta'd 'cause they are "sacred" but canyons should be beta'd because they aren't "sacred" because they are on some Bogley map somewhere?
    Are you sure you didn't just reaaaaaaaly wanna make this post and now you're rationalizing it? Cause that logic doesn't make any sense to me.
    Of course I wanted to post it...it's outstanding beta. It's stuff like this that I want to keep secret. In regards to the "rationalization", I was sensitive to the person that implored me not to reveal it...also, everyone that requested info from me did it my PM, so I thought that might be the proper protocol but couldn't really figure why that should be...you know what a pain in the ass it would be to detail this route to half a dozen or more people individually? That was the decision I had to make.
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  16. #14
    Content Provider Emeritus ratagonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Schnupp View Post
    Thanks for sharing Byron. I'm sure the community knows who was trying to get you to hold back the beta - the usual crowd I suspect. I'm glad you weren't brainwashed by their elite BS, perpetuating their ridiculous notion that somehow they are the only ones fit to do certain routes or canyons.
    Yes, ANGER is always the right response to someone with a different viewpoint than your own.



    p.s.: nice pot, Byron

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Byron View Post
    Regardless, that person didn't bust my chops...in fact, she (yes, she) was really cool about it.
    way to throw Ram's girlfriend under the bus.

  18. #16
    Trail Master RAM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n00basaurus_rex View Post
    way to throw Ram's girlfriend under the bus.

    Could you identify yourself by name? Do I know you? Do you know any girls that are friends? Do you have a wife? Would you wish to be characterized in the same way you just characterized me and this other person? I just finished a prolific spring season and I canyoneered with over a dozen women. Most every one of them is a talented canyoneer in their own right. They are NOT "girlfriends" of other canyoneers, they are people with their own set of skills and accomplishments. Many of them are experts that could no doubt show you a thing or two...or perhaps a dozen. I assume you meant nothing harmful in what you wrote, but really, come on! Always a pleasure visiting "The Swamp."

  19. #17
    Moderator jman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Could you identify yourself by name? Do I know you? Do you know any girls that are friends? Do you have a wife? Would you wish to be characterized in the same way you just characterized me and this other person? I just finished a prolific spring season and I canyoneered with over a dozen women. Most every one of them is a talented canyoneer in their own right. They are NOT "girlfriends" of other canyoneers, they are people with their own set of skills and accomplishments. Many of them are experts that could no doubt show you a thing or two...or perhaps a dozen. I assume you meant nothing harmful in what you wrote, but really, come on! Always a pleasure visiting "The Swamp."
    Good to see that God and his friends visit us in "the swamp" from time to time. Good to know that us lower but humble creatures aren't forgotten over at CC. Hehe. I kid I kid
    ●Canyoneering 'Canyon Conditions' @ www.candition.com
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    "He who walks on the edge...will eventually fall."
    "There are two ways to die in the desert - dehydration and drowning." -overhearing a Park Ranger at Capitol Reef N.P.
    "...the first law of gear-dynamics: gear is like a gas - it will expand to fit the available space." -Wortman, Outside magazine.
    "SEND IT, BRO!!"

  20. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Many of them are experts that could no doubt show you a thing or two...or perhaps a dozen.
    Absolutley! I was certainly shown a few good tricks. An amazing person.

  21. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by n00basaurus_rex View Post
    way to throw Ram's girlfriend under the bus.
    This is exactly what I was talking about in an earlier post...I have no idea who Ram or his girlfriend are. I didn't reveal her username out of respect and the privacy she deserves. In fact, I considered referring to her as "that person", or "they"...I have an ninth grade education, dude...and couldn't figure how to word it to sound proper...I also didn't think some moron would come in here trying to do a Sherlock Holmes. No offense...
    Life is what you make it. Everybody knows that...right?

  22. #20
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