Company Canyoneering

[burley]

I know that what I'm looking to do isn't simple, easy, or without risk (financial and bodily). That said, the owners of my company are interested in a company retreat where canyoneering would be one optional activity. I am also willing to take them. Ultimately we intend to speak with our company insurance and a lawyer, that said, neither of them will understand very well the concept of canyoneering or (no such thing as) 'licensed guides'.

Now, realizing you can get sued for anything, and recognizing that we would be planning and preparing to minimize the risk of something going wrong, my largest concern is company and personal liability. Ultimately if something happened we would want it to fall back on the company (rather than me) and then back on the insurance if possible. Our company has insurances for work we perform but we have not yet contacted our insurance company about this activity. Now, I know the 'easy' way is to hire a guide service with their own insurance etc, however the cost of that option is prohibitive for my company.

So what I'm asking the collective is:

1. What suggestions do you have as far as addressing company and personal liability?
2. Would the company renting the harnesses or paying for the permit change any of the above recommendations? What if we went as 'friends' during 'free time' or after the retreat?
3. What suggestions do you have as far as taking groups through?
4. What have others done in similar situations (though maybe you wouldn't recommend it)?

Before you answer the 3rd question, a few things about me and our group. I am a BSA Canyon Leader and plan to approach this activity as I would a Scout activity: practice rappels prior to canyon decent, extensive planning, other experienced people participating to help manage the group, simple canyons (Keyhole, Yankee Doodle, maybe Pine Creek) etc. The group: would likely be three groups (three canyons, three days) of 10, mostly sub 40 years old, and ranges from rock climbers to some fairly inactive/heavyset people. That said, I think people that aren't up for the challenge will exclude themselves, and if not they will be strongly made aware of the potential difficulties to be encountered.

Your suggestions and ideas are appreciated.

PS: Does anyone know of any good places for cheap lodging in the Zion area? We are looking for something that would have camping and rooms (very basic is fine) available. From my experience Ponderosa is really the only place that would meet our needs and budget. Any others?

[2065toyota]

We have done trips similar to this as our "company", but I recommend keeping everything as separate as possible. We do not let the company pay for any of the related expenses and all employees are given the day off to try and mitigate the liability as much as possible. We always make it very clear that it is not company related. There is really no way to prevent anybody from suing you for anything, so as with anything in life you way the options vs risks vs rewards and make a decision. As of now we have down prob 40 or 50 different company activities ranging from paintball - canyons - snowmobiling trips, etc. and have not had any issues

[2065toyota]

I don't know if New Harmony is close enough, but we have place there on 50 acres that we rent out for company parties, weddings, family reunions and the such. It has plenty of sleeping room, fishing pond, hot tub. Check it out. Let me know if interested and i could your group a 'Bogley' discount. It sleeps 12 in beds, but has lots of floor place and unlimited camping

http://www.vrbo.com/399969

[Scott Card]

Get a guide. http://darkhorseleadership.com/ I do know they will NOT guide in the park however. But plenty to do outside the park.

[ratagonia]

Get a guide. http://darkhorseleadership.com/ I do know they will NOT guide in the park however. But plenty to do outside the park.

Well, you would need a guide who has permits in the area. Not sure you guyz, Scott and Steve, have permits down this way? (clarify that for me please, Scott) You could, however, hire Steve/Dark Horse to train your people up (in the SLC/Provo area) before going down into the canyons.

When you hire a guide company, you are then under their insurance umbrella, which is one reason you pay real money to do so. Some possibilities for you down Zion way:

Zion Adventure Co: http://www.zionadventures.com

Zion Mountain School: http://www.zionmountainschool.com/

Red Desert: http://www.reddesertadventure.com/

Paragon Adventures: http://www.paragonadventure.com/

Doing so does not relieve you of the responsibility to make sure "the company" is acting responsibly ie, not pressuring a reluctant individual into doing something they don't want to do.

Tom

[Scott Card]

Tom, I believe that Clark and Steve do have areas around Zion permitted. You would have to confirm with them though.