Single Strand vs. Double Strand Rappel

[Erik B]

Excluding situations where single strand rappels are necessary (LONG raps w/ a pull line): Do you all rap with both ends of the rope or Biner-block and rappel single strand?

I've always taken comfort in having both ends of the rope in my hands (when possible), however, after looking at quiet a few pictures on the forums it dawned on me that many of you will Biner-block and rap on a single strand even on shorter rappels. Is it an issue of rappelling smoothly? Is it a rope-wear issue?

Does anyone do anything different than the biner-block method? I saw that interesting occam release mechanism
http://canyoncollective.com/threads/...-anchor.18356/ the other day. Anybody try that? the Fiddle-stick/stone knot idea is pretty cool too. Thoughts?

[Scott P]

Personally, I don't see the point of using a biner block/ single strand rappel most of the time. If a canyon is super tight or for some other reason weight is a huge concern, I can see it, but not for something like Pine Creek (for example). Besides, having an extra rope along is always comforting in case you get a core shot or something (which is rare, but does happen on occasion).

Just my opinion.

[Slipknot]

There are benefits to both methods I feel that everyone should feel comfortable with either method because it is often situational. For short raps with my 60' rope or if there is potential for the biner to get snagged on a pull, I will double it.

I more frequently use the single line as opposed to double line for a few different reasons. If a rappel has several stages, especially with some flow, I find it to be a pain to throw all the rope down the first section, rappel down and approach the next stage, gather the rest of the rope, and then throw it down in order to continue the rappel. Rappelling with a silo below you makes this much easier. If I can't see the bottom of the rappel to verify the rope ends on the ground, I feel more comfortable sending down more rope than I think I need. Those of you who frequent this website know that there are always debates on beta for rap length. I also find it easier to go up a single line as well if that situation arises. It has only happened once but eventually ascending a rope will come up at some point in their canyoneering days.

Also, tying off on a double rap to untangle a rats nest of rope or rope caught on a bush is just not as easy unless you are using an autoblock (Not that I want to go there with this discussion). If you need to add friction you could always go with a leg loop biner. Although I can't remember ever needing more friction on a double line rappel.

I don't know if anyone has watched a middle marker on a rope while someone is on a double rap, but I have seen it move 5' because someone had a bit of a death grip squeezing one rope more than the other. The person got down to the last few feet and yelled to me that one end wasn't on the ground. Simple problem to fix but newbies get worried easily. I also had knots in the end just in case for them. I used to do a lot of long double raps and I would put knots in the end of a rope (raping down a multi-pitch climb) which takes longer and also runs the risk of someone forgetting to untie the knot and getting the rope stuck on the pull. If on a single line with 30' on the ground, you don’t' have to bother with it.

[Iceaxe]

One of my favorite topics..... taking something safe/simple and making it complicated/dangerous....

Here is what I posted last time this conversation came up.

I normally just tread my rope through and go.... nothing is faster, nothing is more simple.... and I'll argue nothing is safer....

Now I use the other methods when I have a reason... say I'm on a long rap and using a pull cord…. Or I have beginners I'm worried about needing to lower…..

One of my biggest beefs/complaints is that a lot of folks take simple rigging and make it complicated…. There is a reason most the accidents and death's involve biner blocks on skinny single ropes….

I practice KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid.

I Fell 106 Feet. And Lived
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15131

Heaps Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7204

Pine Creek Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13057

Englestead Accident
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17627

Pine Creek: SAR in Zion
http://www.bogley.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8285

All the accidents listed above were a result (at least partially) of complicating the rigging.... More parts.... more crap that can go wrong....

[hesse15]

Excluding situations where single strand rappels are necessary (LONG raps w/ a pull line): Do you all rap with both ends of the rope or Biner-block and rappel single strand?
I've always taken comfort in having both ends of the rope in my hands (when possible), however, after looking at quiet a few pictures on the forums it dawned on me that many of you will Biner-block and rap on a single strand even on shorter rappels. Is it an issue of rappelling smoothly? Is it a rope-wear issue?
Does anyone do anything different than the biner-block method? I saw that interesting occam release mechanism
http://canyoncollective.com/threads/...-anchor.18356/ the other day. Anybody try that? the Fiddle-stick/stone knot idea is pretty cool too. Thoughts?

first the video is a little scary with the tinycord and I do not know if there is weight on the rope you are able to lift up to open the biner.
I like single strand:allow to carry small pieces of ropes, is faster (been 120lbs took me forever on double ropes).
I like double only on sharp edges because is quicker to move the rubbing spot (when you take your device out you move the rope one arm lenght like they do in Italy canyoning)
i still prefer to be able to use the other strand for an emergency sitation in case you got the rappeller stuck (hair clothing) and you need to get to him quickly, never had to do yet but is an occurrance that could happens in situation

Scott :by the way how do you negotiate big rappels (30 feet and up) with a 6 years old kid? do you rap next to him, do you attach to your device like you do for a dog?
do you use un upper rope and lower him like they do when they guide people?
what about friction if he only weight 40lbs?
you are the most experience out there in terms of kids and canyons
any suggestions?

[oldno7]

I guess you could ask the girl we found suspended by her hair on the last rap in Pine Cr. Double strand rappel, last year.

Single strand will most always leave you options--unlike double, but there is a time and place for each.

[Iceaxe]

I guess you could ask the girl we found suspended by her hair on the last rap in Pine Cr. Double strand rappel, last year.

Single strand will most always leave you options--unlike double, but there is a time and place for each.

If no one was above your options are limited with either method. If someone is above you have multiple options with either method.

Two other thoughts... if you can't escape getting your hair or daddy parts caught in the rappel device do you really belong in the slots? And if you answered yes you are being guided, in which case the rules change, at least for my groups. YMMV


Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[hesse15]

Two other thoughts... if you can't escape getting your hair in the rappel device do you really belong in the slots?
3

what about if the lady is a cute one and you can play hero superman going down on the other rope and free her up?

[Scott P]

I like single strand:allow to carry small pieces of ropes, is faster (been 120lbs took me forever on double ropes).

Good point. I weigh ~235, so double strand for me is not the same as a double strand for someone much lighter. Double strand for me is probably similar to single strand for someone half the weight.

Diameter of ropes makes a huge difference as well. Having too much friction can also cause a sawing motion back and forth on the rock and cause damage.

Scott :by the way how do you negotiate big rappels (30 feet and up) with a 6 years old kid? do you rap next to him, do you attach to your device like you do for a dog?
do you use un upper rope and lower him like they do when they guide people?

When they were really small, we just lowered them. We used a chest harness so there was always 100% chance that they would stay upright.

It wasn't until Shaylee was 7 that we let her rappel. We were on a guided canyon in Dominica and they let her rappel. Of course when she got home she had to brag to her 9 year old brother that she got to rappel and then he wanted to. It wasn't then until we let them rappel.

Since then, they rappel themselves in canyons. Kessler currently has 36 canyons and Shaylee 21, along with several technical climbing routes, so they are really good at it now.

Usually they go single strand with a fireman belay at the bottom. If it's a really big rap on thin diameter, Kessler, the older one can go double strand, such as here in Alcatraz Canyon (he was 10 then, so was a little heaver than in the past):



The only time I've rappelled next to them is in a flowing waterfall.

Occasionally they have gone next to each other, just for fun though:



Even though they are good at rappelling, stemming, climbing, etc, and Kessler can easily hook himself up, we always go with at least one other adult along.

Usually someone else rappels first and belays the kids, but occasionally we let Kessler rappel down first, either because he wants to or because we want him to check something downcanyon. In that case, it has to be a fairly short drop and sometimes we make him go double. As mentioned, he is very confident now, but I still think it's a good idea to be cautious.

In many canyons, the kids are actually an asset now. It's easy for them to take the packs through the tight places of canyons like Alcatraz, while their chunky dad struggles and grunts to get through. They also make keeper potholes easier because you can easily pop them out and they can sometimes rig something up so we can climb out.

what about friction if he only weight 40lbs?

If they are too light, they will have to be lowered. A harness with a chest harness is better so they can't fall backwards or upside down.

Hope that helps.

[hesse15]

Hope that helps.

thanks I am a little stressed out kids are totally out of my league!!
so is a new skill I am going to learn! and add a lot of stress too!

[oldno7]

If no one was above your options are limited with either method. If someone is above you have multiple options with either method.




Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

If no one is above, your the last one down and your options are indeed limited

While it is technically true that a competent canyoneer can help someone from above, the difficulty factor is greatly increased with double strand.

And especially trying if you have all your rope committed to use on the rappel.

[Iceaxe]

And especially trying if you have all your rope committed to use on the rappel.

And this differs from those using single strand and a pull cord how? As I said "all things being equal" which means you both have a rope length to work with....

My deal is I don't believe complicating the system on nearly every rappel is safer than taking a few extra minutes on the very rare occasion you need to pull off a mid-line rescue.... YMMV

Seriously, I've been doing this for a long time with hundreds of noobs/kids and I've only had to pull off one mid-line rescue. And I know this will really disappoint Cristina because I didn't Superman down and do a he-man pick-off.... but the person caught was light so we just grabbed the ropes and muscled her back up to the top where we could correct the situation.... There were other options, but that was quickest... took all of two minutes.

[oldno7]

And this differs from those using single strand and a pull cord how?

Pull cords?? People actually use those??

Single strand you always have access to a "rope" at least as long as the rappel to facilitate a rescue.

Such as lowering a victim out of a contingency system.

SRT guys say "what if"

DRT guys say--ain't nobody gots time for dat....

[Iceaxe]

If I lived my life doing "what if" I would have lived a boring life.

I teach my noobs to self rescue, if I need to set a contingency anchor they will not be canyoneering with me for long. If you don't know how to self rescue you don't know how to properly set an anchor or block.

Overall I believe it's safer to simplify.

Looks like we will just have to agree to disagree.

Tap'n on my Galaxy G3

[oldno7]

Self Rescue should be required learnin', no doubt.


Drt has it's place as well, just not everyplace...

It's all just tools and knowledge to use them.

Simple comes with repetition.

But we've been down this road dozens of times before with equal results.

[rustyenduro]

Rappels into water can be easier using Single if you set the rope length correctly. I did that for Cathedral rappel so my group would not have to worry about a floating disconnect. All the other rappels were DS.

[Sandstone Addiction]

by the way how do you negotiate big rappels (30 feet and up) with a 6 years old kid? do you rap next to him, do you attach to your device like you do for a dog?
do you use un upper rope and lower him like they do when they guide people?
what about friction if he only weight 40lbs?
you are the most experience out there in terms of kids and canyons
any suggestions?

It took a while before my boys (oldest and youngest, that is) were comfortable enough to be lowered. Even after being climbing a few times. But we had good results with tandem rappelling. But it works best on raps with plenty of room and an easy start. Awkward starts and tight raps can be problematic.







Once they had been down a few times tandem, my oldest started to rap by himself and my youngest has no problem being lowered 70 feet.

[ilipichicuma]

For me, I use double strand as long as I have the rope to double the rappel. This fat guy likes all the friction he can get. I will use single, though, when I'm not sure if the rope hit the ground, or when it's longer. However, I think that going double is simpler, faster, and safer most of the time.

[blamkin86]

After about 6 months of doing technical canyons, we prefer single with a biner block and a pull cord. We've had situations where the double rope gets twisted with itself when you can't see it going over a boulder or difficult ledge - leading to either awkward prusiks at the start of the rap, or in a couple situations requiring assistance.

Thanks to my fear of heights, we don't really do much over 100' drops. We carry two 120 canyon fire ropes and a much lighter pull cord and of course lots of webbing and rapides. We also carry a 2x2 piece of carpet and enough webbing to protect the edge whenever we can, although that's not always possible.

I do know one of the bigger guys who goes with us would like us to go double for the friction. I'm 175 without my pack and a single with one ear on the pirana is plenty for me, sometimes too slow.

We prefer to go a little slower and be as safe as possible. Not a criticism of anyone else's habits, just saying what we do. We are always open to learning and try new stuff often.

[Eric Holden]

Always Double stranded. Easy, simple, quick, no fuss, no muss...