Escalante 3A/3B canyons?

[emilyadams]

I'm headed out to Escalante on Thursday and Friday. I've got experience in 3A and 3B canyons. I"m looking for a couple of canyons in that range. Preferably no R or X slots, and I'm a bit intimidated by keeper holes. Does anyone have any suggestions? And where could I get beta that is more trustworthy than Kelsey's book? climb-utah and canyoneeringusa.com are good, but I only see a handful of canyons on there. I know there are a ton more than what they have listed!

Thanks for the help!!!!

[yetigonecrazy]

I'm headed out to Escalante on Thursday and Friday. I've got experience in 3A and 3B canyons. I"m looking for a couple of canyons in that range. Preferably no R or X slots, and I'm a bit intimidated by keeper holes. Does anyone have any suggestions? And where could I get beta that is more trustworthy than Kelsey's book? climb-utah and canyoneeringusa.com are good, but I only see a handful of canyons on there. I know there are a ton more than what they have listed!

Thanks for the help!!!!

Just out of curiosity, how do you find MRKs books to be un-trustworthy?

[emilyadams]

I feel that his maps have the opportunity to be inaccurate. And I don't like his pompousness.

[Slot Machine]

I know there are a ton more than what they have listed!

Maybe this will help: Download this map to your desktop/laptop:

http://www.bogley.com/forum/attachme...5&d=1361221836

This map should install directly to Google Earth, assuming that Google Earth is already installed on your computer.

Once the map is installed, take a look around the Escalante area. I've labeled most of the published canyons down there. If there is a canyon that peaks your interest on the map, and you still can't find the beta, then post it on this thread and see if someone can help.

Bob

[hesse15]

I feel that his maps have the opportunity to be inaccurate. And I don't like his pompousness.

the maps are sketches,
you need to follow the instructions: learn to read a quad map and report it to the sketch as specified in the description

[Scott P]

Does anyone have any suggestions?

Davis, Spencer/Metro, Neon, and Ringtail might be good and usually aren't too difficult (Neon would be the most challenging of the bunch, and Neon and Ringtail both have potential keeper potholes-use caution) . Kelsey's info is adequate for these and there is information online for some of these. A good slot drops into Boulder Creek as well. I've posted it somewhere on Bogley if you search for it.

[ratagonia]

Just out of curiosity, how do you find MRKs books to be un-trustworthy?

Oh Lord, let me count the ways...

but I won't.

Mr. K's notes are un-trustworthy. This has been noted and cataloged in many places by many people. They are.

What bugs me the most, as a guide book author, is that he puts canyons in his book that he has not done. Scandalous! Oh yes, in the fine print, he notes that he has not completed the canyon. THEN WHY THE FRAK DOES HE PUT IT IN HIS BOOK IF HE HAS NOT DONE IT!!!!

Scandalous.

Many other problems too. He does a lot of guessing.

So, YES, Emily, you are wise to be cautious of using Mr. K's books.

Tom

[ratagonia]

Davis, Spencer/Metro, Neon, and Ringtail might be good and aren't too difficult (Neon would be the most challenging of the bunch). Kelsey's info is adequate for these and there is information online for some of these. A good slot drops into Boulder Creek as well. I've posted it somewhere on Bogley if you search for it.

Ringtail has two big keeper potholes - watch out for that one!

Hard to be more specific without more from you, Emily. Are you going alone? 8' tall 120 lbs - the keeper in Neon will not bother you. Strong group? Good Vehicles?

Davis Gulch is really good, has only modest technical parts and is a fabulous tour. But it is a long way down "The Road".

You might check E2 and E1 and E3. You can get a copy of Steve Allen's book (Canyoneering 3: Escalante) at the Outfitters in Escalante if nowhere closer to home. LOTS of good things in there, the problem is choosing what to do.

Tom

[Scott P]

What bugs me the most, as a guide book author, is that he puts canyons in his book that he has not done. Scandalous!

Tom, don't almost all (meaning that there are exceptions) guidebook authors put routes in their books that they haven't done? I can only think of a few that don't (though I agree that it is certainly preferable if they do).

That said, I've found some errors in several of MK's books. I've found them to be mostly accurate, but often vague (which the vague part doesn't mean inaccurate), but with some errors.

An example of vagueness, would be that he might say ascend so and so slope, but it doesn't say that it's all loose and has 1000 feet elevation gain.

Most of his information is accurate, but there are definitely some errors at times. I usually try to send them to him occasionally.

Ringtail has two big keeper potholes - watch out for that one!

True; I will edit my post. Possible bad information on my part.

[ratagonia]

Tom, don't almost all (meaning that there are exceptions) guidebook authors put routes in their books that they haven't done? I can only think of a few that don't.

Canyoneering Guidebooks? no others that I know of publish routes they have not done, other than Shane, who employs a few reliable correspondents to add a canyon here and there (which is having a co-author, roughly the same as having done it).

In climbing, it is pretty standard for the author not to have done all the routes in the book. But they have met and talked to someone who has done the route, or otherwise acquired the use of a reliable correspondent.

Hiking Guide Books - I think most authors would do all the hikes in the guidebook.

This is different than doing part of a canyon and then making a guess about what lies between the parts The Author has seen, and stating it as fact in his writeup. A careful reading of his small text will sometimes reveal that he had not actually completed the canyon. Caveat Emptor.

Tom

[mcweyen]

A little off the topic, but a very interesting read

http://www.backpacker.com/april_1999...y/articles/824

[Scott P]

Canyoneering Guidebooks? no others that I know of publish routes they have not done, other than Shane, who employs a few reliable correspondents to add a canyon here and there (which is having a co-author, roughly the same as having done it).

Yes, but there are only a very few canyoneering guidebook authors out there, at least for technical canyons. MK, Todd Martin, Tyler Williams, Mike Dallon you, and maybe a couple routes in Steve Allen's, Butchart's, and Steck's book. Am I missing anyone?

I know we've been skunked a few times by otherwise good climbing books (such as the Desert Rock series).

Hiking Guide Books - I think most authors would do all the hikes in the guidebook.

It doesn't seem that way for most of the books I own. For example, in almost all of the state guidebooks from Falcon I have, there are usually credits at the end of a hike write up crediting whoever contributed the information. I guess it's pointless to debate something so silly though.

================================================== ============================================

I think most guidebooks have errors, but some require a more cautious approach than others. Some books are worse than Kesley's (such as Foghorn's Utah Guide, don't buy it), but many are better.

Kelsey's and Steve Allen's books both have errors, for example, but the difference is that Kelsey's errors are more likely to get you in trouble. All the errors I know of in Steve Allen's books, for example, are pretty benign unless you are really incompetent. There is also an ethics issue on methods used in the books, though that probably is another discussion.

Harvey Butchart's books (Grand Canyon) are sort of a more extreme version of Kelsey's. They have only a few vague maps, the route descriptions are even more vague, and they contain lots of second hand information. I find them to be a valuable tool, but you have to use a common sense (and more cautious) approach when using Kelsey's or Butchart's.

You have to get a feel for each author. In my opinion: Kelsey often understates the difficulties of some routes, Butchart even more so. Steve Allen over exaggerates most difficulties. Yours and Stecks are more or less right on and between the two. At least, that's how I look at it.

Just my take.

[ratagonia]

Yes, but there are only a very few canyoneering guidebook authors out there, at least for technical canyons. MK, Todd Martin, Tyler Williams, Mike Dallin you, and maybe a couple routes in Steve Allen's, Butchart's, and Steck's book. Am I missing anyone?

I know we've been skunked a few times by otherwise good climbing books (such as the Desert Rock series).



It doesn't seem that way for most of the books I own. For example, in almost all of the state guidebooks from Falcon I have, there are usually credits at the end of a hike write up crediting whoever contributed the information.

You mean, because Mr. K is the only fabricator in this group, but this group is small, therefore... ???

I, too, have been skunked by a climbing guidebook where the writer did not know where the crag was. This is a problem with the guidebook MILL known as Falcon - they insist on having a guidebook to everything. Quality suffers.

Falcon makes compilations from their other guidebooks. This is called having multiple contributors. This is quite different than FABRICATING canyon beta for technical canyons.

But really, the main problem is his books are hard to comprehend.

Tom

[Iceaxe]

Canyoneering Guidebooks? no others that I know of publish routes they have not done, other than Shane, who employs a few reliable correspondents to add a canyon here and there (which is having a co-author, roughly the same as having done it).

Just to keep the record straight.... Climb-Utah.com is more than just ME, we out grew ME ten years ago when the website became much to large for one person to update and manage. By going to a WE system the website is able to offer better accuracy, more timely updates and more volume. I'm just the face of the organization. But Tom should understand this as Imlay Canyoneering Products operates on the same model. Tom doesn't really stitch all those backpacks together, that is done by underpaid workers in a far-away country. Same thing with Climb-Utah.com, except we use underpaid Americans.

And yes, WE have done every adventure listed on Climb-Utah.com, Most of them multiple times..... carry on...

[Taylor]

And yes, WE have done every adventure listed on Climb-Utah.com, Most of them multiple times

My aim in life.

[Iceaxe]

My aim in life.

And our aim is to add routes faster then you can do them.... the race is on!

[neumannbruce]

I think that west fork Baker is a great canyon to add if you want to backpack down to Neon. You can also explore up Ringtail to the keepers as something to do for a rest day.

My intention is not to generate contention, but rather present another point of view. While Kelsey

[flowncheddar]

My aim in life.

concur!

[mcweyen]

and I agree to both of the above